5 blade mafia

Smokem said:
Garrett produced the BR74 and TR30R which were both in the 5+5 blade configuration, these dated back to the mid 90's, however they were used on restricted inlet classes with substantially smaller dimensions. Gale Banks also tested the TR30R on both variations of their Sidewinder Duramax.

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Inlet restrictions is where the 5 blade design would be a benefit IMO. We have seen huge gains over a box charger by narrowing the hub to get more air through the 3" hole, or whatever size it may be. I am not much for fancy names and such, but I have seen big power gains first hand as a result of a good forged billet compressor wheel with upgraded aero over the box chargers. There is nothing wrong with a box charger, but they were not designed for competition. There is a lot of tweaking and testing involved with most (not all) competition chargers. Who was the last guy to win anY PPL pull with a box S400 or HX60? I am not jumping on the 5 blade ban wagon, but I can tell you that the OE's did not have high performance in mind when they designed the box chargers. But are they durable? Hell yes. Sometimes I think a guy could use an S400 as concrete pump. :)
 
straight 6 roar said:
One of the most obvious things that has to follow the laws of physics is that with 5 blades, the wheel can be lighter. Thus less mass = less inertia = higher peak rpm = higher flow.
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Wrong. It just takes the heavier wheel longer to get to said rpm, assuming you have enough turbine power to make it happen. The turbine in a typical hi-po diesel is a huge fraction of the total rotor polar inertia. If you have shaft speed sensor data showing otherwise....please post it up.

Second comment specific to the TR30R wheels. You need to ask yourself....what application was it for? I can assure you it was not for a diesel that needs pressure ratio > 4:1.
 
nwpadmax said:
Second comment specific to the TR30R wheels. You need to ask yourself....what application was it for? I can assure you it was not for a diesel that needs pressure ratio > 4:1.
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Winner, you may notice I stated Banks tested the TR30R, not that they continued to use them.
 
1stgensleeper said:
The thing is that a lot of these ideas have already been discussed, tested, and proven. We don't need to buy $60,000 software.
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Proven.....where?

I'm gonna bet you can't produce a dyno chart showing your wheel vs a current 6+6 billet wheel of the same size on the same truck.
 
Smokem said:
Winner, you may notice I stated Banks tested the TR30R, not that they continued to use them.
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The reference was not aimed at you...it was an open rhetorical question for everyone. And as usual you are correct.

And while we're speaking of it...the TR30R has at least 100 variants. The wheel combinations are fewer than that, but there are a large number of one-offs for particular cars all over the world. 5+5, 6+6, 7+7, 11 blade comp wheels are all used.
 
nwpadmax said:
Proven.....where?

I'm gonna bet you can't produce a dyno chart showing your wheel vs a current 6+6 billet wheel of the same size on the same truck.
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Formula 1

Listen, nowhere did I say that the 5 blade is the answer to everyone's power quest. I simply said that it has the capability to flow more than a wheel with more blades for the reasons I already discussed. Why did F1 teams use to use less than 5 blades on their turbos? Cause for the specific size wheel they had to run they could make it flow more.

When I say things have been proven don't assume I have all the answers in the form of dyno graphs sitting in front of me. That's ridiculous to mention. I've researched and talked with a lot of people and yes it's true. You seem to know it all so I'm surprised you're questioning it. There's a lot of information out there in this world you just need to get of your high horse and look for it.
 
Turbo Performance said:
Right, does mass not have an effect on centrifugal force? More mass=more force, no?
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Mass of individual blades. In fact, stronger/thicker blades can be spinned higher even if they are heavier, just because they are stronger and dont bend so easily.

But yes, less blades flow more but it must be optimized for your application like someone already said. Less is not always more.
 
1stgensleeper said:
Formula 1

Listen, nowhere did I say that the 5 blade is the answer to everyone's power quest. I simply said that it has the capability to flow more than a wheel with more blades for the reasons I already discussed. Why did F1 teams use to use less than 5 blades on their turbos? Cause for the specific size wheel they had to run they could make it flow more.

When I say things have been proven don't assume I have all the answers in the form of dyno graphs sitting in front of me. That's ridiculous to mention. I've researched and talked with a lot of people and yes it's true. You seem to know it all so I'm surprised you're questioning it. There's a lot of information out there in this world you just need to get of your high horse and look for it.
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The major flaw is in your wording.

Those wheels worked for a certain F1 engine combination that they were specifically designed for.

To try and extrapolate that to current diesel truck engines (the focus of this forum) and wave the banner of "proven" is misleading at best.

You're right. There is a lot of information in this world. Some of us just have tons more of it than you appreciate.
 
nwpadmax said:
The major flaw is in your wording.

Those wheels worked for a certain F1 engine combination that they were specifically designed for.

To try and extrapolate that to current diesel truck engines (the focus of this forum) and wave the banner of "proven" is misleading at best.

You're right. There is a lot of information in this world. Some of us just have tons more of it than you appreciate.
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Then please, show us your facts against less blades. It seems like you do a lot of this talking on turbo related threads but never can give reasons as to why you're right.
 
1stgensleeper said:
Then please, show us your facts against less blades. It seems like you do a lot of this talking on turbo related threads but never can give reasons as to why you're right.
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There are quite a few people on these boards who have tons of direct knowledge and would like to comment more, but for obvious reasons aren't going to drop their shorts to argue with anonymous interwebbers.

If it's not obvious to you why 5+5 wheels struggle to make pressure ratio, please, do more research.

Why doesn't a 2+2 wheel outflow everything? LOL
 
nwpadmax said:
There are quite a few people on these boards who have tons of direct knowledge and would like to comment more, but for obvious reasons aren't going to drop their shorts to argue with anonymous interwebbers.

If it's not obvious to you why 5+5 wheels struggle to make pressure ratio, please, do more research.

Why doesn't a 2+2 wheel outflow everything? LOL
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Yes, I understand the pressure ratio aspect, but the OP is not only talking about about using a 5 blade secondary. Wouldn't a 5 blade primary be fine?
 
1stgensleeper said:
Yes, I understand the pressure ratio aspect, but the OP is not only talking about about using a 5 blade secondary. Wouldn't a 5 blade primary be fine?
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doesnt matter, primary or secondary, they both should make about same PR.

There has been a test between 5+5 and 11 blade billet wheel for Garrett 2260 VNT in 3 liter BMW diesel. 5+5 flowed more but didnt last very long for some reason, 11 blade had better response and wider range.
 
Leiffi said:
doesnt matter, primary or secondary, they both should make about same PR.

There has been a test between 5+5 and 11 blade billet wheel for Garrett 2260 VNT in 3 liter BMW diesel. 5+5 flowed more but didnt last very long for some reason, 11 blade had better response and wider range.
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I can understand the better response and wider range.
 
1stgensleeper said:
Yes, I understand the pressure ratio aspect, but the OP is not only talking about about using a 5 blade secondary. Wouldn't a 5 blade primary be fine?
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It should, but even a very simplified map would be nice to have in hand before dropping a bunch of coin. Even a datalog from another truck would be helpful.
 
If a 63/78 setup will make almost over 900 on a 12 valve with conservative timing, it'll do over 1000 on a cr. I'd just run that, and be into it for less than 2k in turbos. And you know you'd be hard pressed to find a better spooling 1000hp setup for that kind of money.
 
Just saw that somebody did 817? On firepunks dyno with a 63/68 5 blade single on a commonrail. Pretty damn impressive.

I think that was fuel only too. Nobody mentioned any nitrous.
 
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