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Mrich0908

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Dec 1, 2017
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31
Truck is a 01 ram
Those of you who have oring your own head . I have a knee mill and can use my vf9 at work that I operate.
Care to explain what tool you use on your boring head , depth of cut or what ball mill your use on your cnc , width of cut , size of circle where the circle is in relationship to the headgasket .
I tried to do orings myself. I forgot what depth I used . I want to say I used stainless safety wire that was .055 and wire protrusion was .014, the rings were machined on the outer edge of the stock head gasket but I think some fell out during reinstall or I did something wrong when machining them on m u knee mill. I installed everything and I get a no start. Now I know everything works because my truck was operational before taking it apart minus the blown head gasket. I bled everything. I even tried using starting fluid with the grid heater unplugged. I don't even get a cough . I've taken this truck apart and out it back together enough times to know I did something wrong. So I'm at the point where either I mixed some valves up during the reinstall those aren't sealing or I messed up something during re install/ when I tried to oring my head for the first time .
 
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Are you getting any smoke out the exhaust when cranking?
Did you check your timing?
 
Timing is fine , lash is perfect. nope no smoke . Won't even run with starting fluid. Prior to pulling the head the truck ram for over a year with its current configuration. It something I did. I lapped the valves I could have mixed them up prior to install but I don't think that happen. I either dropped an oring when installing the head or didn't machine the orings properly. Either at the heads coming back off to check. I did buy another head incase I screwed up this one but I would like to machine the head on the truck properly ( if I did not machine it correctly)and get it to work so I can save that head to do some port work down the road.
But ya it's a compression thing . I should be able to put the head on set valve last with out anything else on and get it to run for few seconds with starting fluid thats how I know it's my fault . It's something I did. I was just hoping to talk to a guy that has machined orings a few times to pick their brain.
 
I think the reason he asked is you dont need compression to fuel, so even if you had low compression it would still fuel and smoke. If you screwed up every hole and had that bad of a compression leak when you hit it with either it would be talking to you somewhere.... This is vp44 injected truck, have you scanned for codes? cracked an injector line free at the cross tube to verify fuel? Cam sensor plugged in? one more thought if you had those rings that far fkd you would be leaking coolant.....


.041 wire cut .030 deep on a .020 marine gasket is what i do. od specs i would have to measure but center on the fire ring on the gasket is what i go for, i suppose off center in either direction slightly wouldn't hurt. your just pinching the ring so it cant slip...
 
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Mrich0908 said:
Timing is fine , lash is perfect. nope no smoke . Won't even run with starting fluid. Prior to pulling the head the truck ram for over a year with its current configuration. It something I did. I lapped the valves I could have mixed them up prior to install but I don't think that happen. I either dropped an oring when installing the head or didn't machine the orings properly. Either at the heads coming back off to check. I did buy another head incase I screwed up this one but I would like to machine the head on the truck properly ( if I did not machine it correctly)and get it to work so I can save that head to do some port work down the road.
But ya it's a compression thing . I should be able to put the head on set valve last with out anything else on and get it to run for few seconds with starting fluid thats how I know it's my fault . It's something I did. I was just hoping to talk to a guy that has machined orings a few times to pick their brain.
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If your compression was that low, the starter would be spinning so fast it would sound like a jet taking off and it would be butter smooth too; the truck wouldn't vibrate/shake at all like they normally do. Even then there would be signs of fuel being injected. Smoke, slobber out the pipe, something. It just doesn't sound like it's getting fuel.
 
Crack 2 or 3 fuel lines loose at the head if you haven't already done so to bleed the air out.
 
T-MAN said:
I think the reason he asked is you dont need compression to fuel, so even if you had low compression it would still fuel and smoke. If you screwed up every hole and had that bad of a compression leak when you hit it with either it would be talking to you somewhere.... This is vp44 injected truck, have you scanned for codes? cracked an injector line free at the cross tube to verify fuel? Cam sensor plugged in? one more thought if you had those rings that far fkd you would be leaking coolant.....


.041 wire cut .030 deep on a .020 marine gasket is what i do. od specs i would have to measure but center on the fire ring on the gasket is what i go for, i suppose off center in either direction slightly wouldn't hurt. your just pinching the ring so it cant slip...
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No codes , like I said it ran great prior to minus the blown head gasket but still made plenty of power. I looked everything is plugged in. Ya it's a vp truck batteries have plenty of charge. I cracked the injectors I do have plenty of fuel coming out the tube. Cam sensor is plugged in I checked so is the oil map iat and coolqnt sensors. Vp is plugged in grounds are great . The truck had a basic rebuild few years ago . Fass lift pump . Injectors were just popped tested. I don't want to sound like a know it all I'm not I just believe it's a compression issue.
No it doesn't have the slightest of a cough sputter. Nothing. Thanks for the info on the o rings . I guess I'll figure it out when I dive back into it.
kleann said:
Crack 2 or 3 fuel lines loose at the head if you haven't already done so to bleed the air out.
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Thank you I'm well past that I've cracked all 6 making sure there is plenty of fuel.
 
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I think I'm on the right track I degreesed the block and spray it down with brake clean prior to the head install. The back of the engine has some fuel on top of the bell housing ( possible loose banjo return )and I see fuel leak under the exhaust manifold. Towards the back it's very wet. I'm use going to tear it down .
I think when I did the oring too I put them to the outer edge of the fire ring but definitely still inside on the stock fire ring . I remember I could barley get them to go inside the grooves I machined . I don't think I was using the proper tool at the time . I tried to grind my own and did a horrible job. I've since purchased a parting tool for my boring head.
LENEMJHl.jpg
 
kinda crazy, guys run these starting on ether at or less then 12.0 to 1 compression, mine started on its own at 220#cylinder pressure. i would think if you had a .051 wire that fell out and was laying on the gasket you would leak coolant as the wire would shim the head off the gasket. also what's the chances all 6 were screwed up? these things will run on 4 cylinders or atleast try to start if a few were ok. If you cut the orings and installed them in a perfect circle and you missed the fire ring it would still start, Even if you cut them .005 deep it would seal but leak coolant...let us know what you find when you pull the head..

.039 cutter for a .041 wire.. what did you cut the groove width at for your interference fit?
 
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Mrich0908 said:
I think I'm on the right track I degreesed the block and spray it down with brake clean prior to the head install. The back of the engine has some fuel on top of the bell housing ( possible loose banjo return )and I see fuel leak under the exhaust manifold. Towards the back it's very wet. I'm use going to tear it down .
I think when I did the oring too I put them to the outer edge of the fire ring but definitely still inside on the stock fire ring . I remember I could barley get them to go inside the grooves I machined . I don't think I was using the proper tool at the time . I tried to grind my own and did a horrible job. I've since purchased a parting tool for my boring head.
LENEMJHl.jpg
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Without a compression test number or leakdown percentage, I’m still curious what it sounds/looks/feels like when cranking. I know it seems funny, but any seasoned tech. will have a pretty good idea of the cylinder pressure during cranking based on those things. Post a video of it cranking or test it, that way we can put that question to rest.
 
I'm not going to waste my time. It has some compression but not enough, the truck doesn't free spin. The difference between 13.1 to 16.1 compression ratio isn't as much as one would think that's the difference between needing a spark plug and not coupled with the head not sealing .
Your 100% corrent with me and I should be compression testi g the cylinders. I do have a diesel compression tester but I don't have the adapter for a 24v block. If I did that would be exactly what I would do and or the advice I would give some one else . I know myself and my truck well enough not to waste money and time I don't have.
It comes down to this in my eyes if I pulled all the electronics off the engine and shot a bit of starting fluid in the intake as long as timing is good and compression is there I would get it to fire and run for a second , very least cough and try to run . That doesn't happen. The only variable is the head I worked on .
I've already starting tearing it down some . If anyone is interested I'll come back and let you know what I find. Even if I was right or wrong. Who knows I may be totally wrong I'm ok with redoing my work if that's the case.
But thank you for your help .
I have ordered the proper tooling (grooving bar for my boring head) I'm going to go up to the next size wire and make sure my ring protrusion is between .008-.010. It's what I should have done to begin with.
 
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Very curious to know what you find.
If it's not reacting to the starting fluid, there is something seriously off. You didn't by chance have rags stuffed in the intake ports while machining? No offense to your intelligence meant, shit happens.

Like T-Man mentioned your oring job, even if you missed the fire ring all together it should still fire and push coolant or compression out from under the head itself. If the intake and exhaust valve were swapped and not seating correctly or miss adjusted, you should hear it popping back through the intake and have fuel dripping out of the exhaust.
 
Snedge said:
Very curious to know what you find.
If it's not reacting to the starting fluid, there is something seriously off. You didn't by chance have rags stuffed in the intake ports while machining? No offense to your intelligence meant, shit happens.

Like T-Man mentioned your oring job, even if you missed the fire ring all together it should still fire and push coolant or compression out from under the head itself. If the intake and exhaust valve were swapped and not seating correctly or miss adjusted, you should hear it popping back through the intake and have fuel dripping out of the exhaust.
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I will come back with an update .
That's why I think it's compression. No popping coughing sputtering... nothing and it's the one thing I could have affected. I know timing is correct.
I can't see what's coming out from the exhaust . I have a large set of compounds on it with my exhaust manifold flipped.
I could have left a rag inside something . I did have foam plugs plugging the injectors holes with rags in the intake .
I could have done any thing I wouldn't put it past myself . Im not invincible to screw ups. I've done it all but I have a fresh head here so either way I will get it going again.
The plan so far is pull head see If I could evidence. If not remeasure what machine work I did . I'm going to redo that either way . The tool bit I ground was horrible at best. I have the proper grooving tooling now . Check for rags and foam plugs in the head, Relap valves make sure I have the inconel valves on the exhaust side. Check rings make sure they didn't freeze up inside the piston from sitting.
If all else fails use the fresh head after I transfer springs and such over to the other head I purchased.
I will be barley assuming the engine this time. No exhaust turbos piping radiator . Just enough to start it with a hit of starting fluid.
 
As I'm tearing into it you can see the back three cylinders have ful or coolant running down the intake . I've yet to Crack the nuts to the head studs. In a few hours I will better know what's going on. I haven't found any rags or such yet.
v0gs062l.jpg

AuUwPCjl.jpg

644TDdxl.jpg
 
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Looks like coolant from your heater hose......, you have before pics of the bottom of this head assembled?
 
The heater hose or any coolant lines never leaked. The first picture I posted shows the exact same thing prior to any disassembly. I filled the block and drained it with the hoses still on . The head is still sealed to its block. Maybe fuel maybe coolant I see compression is pushing out fluid between the cylinders Head and block . That's what I see . Head will be off soon. I'm the guy who did the oring job and I'm telling you I did a bad job you may want to take my word for it.
I'm not sure what you mean by the bottom of the head assembled. Just a random picture of the side of the head with valves and its seats? No I had no reason to take one like that I have a Pic before the valves where installed on my mill while doing the I rings. I'll also add my instagram there more pics of my truck and my lifted gmc with turbocharged 383 stroker.
https://www.instagram.com/compoundcoaltrain/
rWUYYM1l.jpg
 
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A pic just to see if exhaust valves were on the exhaust side and intakes were on intake side, i would bet if Stevie wonder and Ray charles oringed a cummins head the motor would still start..... i cant wait to see what is discovered...... carry on
 
No they weren't I'm uploading pics soon , heads off . Truth is I'm no closer to understanding why it wouldn't start . I honestly thought when I would have pulled the head off and have had an ah ha moment , nope. All the rings were still in the bores I made. You can clearly see the head gaskets fire ring fully seated to the block . The orings seated on the fire rings off the head gasket. One thing I did notice is I see witness marks from the coolant going to the head gasket it looks like. I use prematex copper paint before I lay my gasket down . It almost look like the exhaust side didn't seat fully but the intake did but the engine didn't have its first heat cycle either. Next I guess I'll recheck my machine work and go over the orings I know a few of them aren't correct. I'll upload pics soon I'm beat. Any one think the ring could have froze in the piston lands. The block sat outside under the hood with out a head for 6-8 months. I'll check k that too.
 
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