Does your steering suck?

[Billysgoat]

A flat head screw is not as strong as a hex head is what I've always been told.
The shaft of the bolt is just as strong, yes, the head can be sheared off, but is less likely to shear off than a hex head of the same diameter.

With the stresses on those 3 bolts, I would like to see as much strength as physically possible. + the fact that they are a royal pain in the a$$ if you ever have to remove them. I work on industrial scales, and some scales were spec'd with flathead bolts in certain locations, my experience shows that A. they do not hold their torque as well. B. They tend to gall in their mounting.
Both A and B come down to operator error, if you are using a flat head that you think will need to come out, use never seize or 241 grade loctite.

C. They strip out easily when trying to remove them.

I will agree 100% with this, the allen head used is always one step down from a socket head of the same size, add a little galling and the extra surface contact of the head and you have a problem.

At our shop we have retrofitted every one we have come across to counterbored holes with good old fashioned grade 8 hex head bolts.

The standard for allen head bolts is equal to or above that for grade 8, so you are putting in a weaker fastener, if you have an MSC supply book, look up their info on bolts, good reading.

Current vocation is industrial maintenance, before that was aircraft maintenance, used the stew out of both flat head bolts and rivets. In this application it will actually work better than a hex head, couple of reasons.

1. Greater head contact area, spreads the load out a bit more. Also means the cast plate can be that much stronger by having that much more material around it.

2. You will not be as likely to get the box "Off Square" as easy, the stock box uses threaded holes in the frame for a reason, there is a certain geometry the engineers are looking for and they want the box at angle XY, not angle XZ. Use of the flatheads will ensure proper linup. As to the possibility of the head being unsquare in the recess? Not likely if Justin has done his measuring correctly and the mount holes are on the exact same pattern as the 3rd Gen steering box.

Long story short, Justin has used the proper fastener here, in the correct manner, in my honest opinion. If he should make a production run of them, and you buy one, by all means remove enough cast material to counterbore for a thin head 9/16 bolt to replace the flat head. In a years time when it breaks out, or the head brakes off, don't point a finger at Justin, the other three will be pointing at the one to blame.

 

[Blue Blur]

Ok awesome I want one! Where do I send the check?

 

[murfman]

Current vocation is industrial maintenance, before that was aircraft maintenance, used the stew out of both flat head bolts and rivets. In this application it will actually work better than a hex head, couple of reasons.

1. Greater head contact area, spreads the load out a bit more. Also means the cast plate can be that much stronger by having that much more material around it.
If that is the case, why are flathead fasteners ony spec'd when clearance issues or smooth flat surfaces mandate them?

2. You will not be as likely to get the box "Off Square" as easy, the stock box uses threaded holes in the frame for a reason, there is a certain geometry the engineers are looking for and they want the box at angle XY, not angle XZ. Use of the flatheads will ensure proper linup. As to the possibility of the head being unsquare in the recess? Not likely if Justin has done his measuring correctly and the mount holes are on the exact same pattern as the 3rd Gen steering box.
There are no threaded holes in the frame on any 2nd gen I've seen, the bolts go through the frame and thread into the steering box. If the mountin holes in either the plate or the steering box are off by as little as .005 to .010 they could cause the flathead bolt to only contact the tapered hole on half of the surface. In fact if you measure the mounting holes in the frame you will find that they are oversize to allow "wiggle room" to make up for manufacturing tolerances. I calibrate CMMs as part of my job, and you would be amazed at the tolerance levels used in the auto industry. I will guarantee you that the steering boxes that are mass produced have a tolerance greater than that. If the plate is perfect, it does not mean it will match the steering box just due to production tolerances
Long story short, Justin has used the proper fastener here, in the correct manner, in my honest opinion. If he should make a production run of them, and you buy one, by all means remove enough cast material to counterbore for a thin head 9/16 bolt to replace the flat head. In a years time when it breaks out, or the head brakes off, don't point a finger at Justin, the other three will be pointing at the one to blame.

My thought would be to make the plate 3/16" to 1/4" thicker to allow for a hex head bolt in place, IF needed.

 

[Mountaineer]

Isn't there a way to just change the gear ratio of the 2nd gen box ?

 

[Billysgoat]

Flat heads cost more per bolt than regular socket heads, not to mention the machine work required for the corresponding indention.

I misspoke on the threaded holes, being tired will do that, you are correct, the threads are in the steering box, it's been over 2 years since I changed one. My point is, I believe, still valid though, you want the box as close as possible to the frame, not to mention more material will cost more. Incremental cost true, but it adds up in the long run. If the holes in the box are .005 out? Big deal, a 9/16 bolt will be able to take enough torque to make it all work out.

 

[murfman]

Isn't there a way to just change the gear ratio of the 2nd gen box ?

Yes, GM truck boxes will bolt up, as they use the same mounting pattern, however the mid 2009 Rams have a new even larger than the original 3rd gen steering box, that is similar in size to the Ford Superduty box. It was a running change around March, similar to the 2001.5 and later upgrades to the last of the 2nd gen trucks. This is the box that has piqued my interest.

 

[murfman]

Flat heads cost more per bolt than regular socket heads, not to mention the machine work required for the corresponding indention.

I misspoke on the threaded holes, being tired will do that, you are correct, the threads are in the steering box, it's been over 2 years since I changed one. My point is, I believe, still valid though, you want the box as close as possible to the frame, not to mention more material will cost more. Incremental cost true, but it adds up in the long run. If the holes in the box are .005 out? Big deal, a 9/16 bolt will be able to take enough torque to make it all work out.

The reason I am soo adament about the mounting strength is I was in a friends late 70s chevy (Yeah, I know friends don't let friends drive chevys) Thak the steering box broke free from the frame, on the I-10 EB to I-215 NB ramp in SoCal at about 65 MPH, mind you this was a truck with 38" tires, and we hit both retaining walls, and finally ended up with the front axle hanging off of the overpass. It was not a fun ride. since then (this was in 1985) I have always erred on the side of overkill when it comes to steering components.

 

[Billysgoat]

The reason I am soo adament about the mounting strength is I was in a friends late 70s chevy (Yeah, I know friends don't let friends drive chevys) Thak the steering box broke free from the frame, on the I-10 EB to I-215 NB ramp in SoCal at about 65 MPH, mind you this was a truck with 38" tires, and we hit both retaining walls, and finally ended up with the front axle hanging off of the overpass. It was not a fun ride. since then (this was in 1985) I have always erred on the side of overkill when it comes to steering components.

That I understand, I think in this case the plate would be your weak point rather than the bolts. Chevy trucks of those years thru to the 89s were notorious for weak steering box mounting, I know, got one :bang

 

[Mountaineer]

Yes, GM truck boxes will bolt up, as they use the same mounting pattern, however the mid 2009 Rams have a new even larger than the original 3rd gen steering box, that is similar in size to the Ford Superduty box. It was a running change around March, similar to the 2001.5 and later upgrades to the last of the 2nd gen trucks. This is the box that has piqued my interest.

Thanks for the info. I guess I might try a gm box. Now back to my question, Is there anyway to change the gear ratio of the 2nd gen box ?
( without changing out the whole box )

 

[murfman]

Thanks for the info. I guess I might try a gm box. Now back to my question, Is there anyway to change the gear ratio of the 2nd gen box ?
( without changing out the whole box )

The GM boxes have a faster gear ratio.

 

[Cumminsfever]

What year or application GM box do we git?

 

[Mr.Diesel]

I am not trying to de-rail ya or any thing, this does seem like a good idea...but why not just a different box? I'm not sure what the ratio on a 3rd gen is but when I had my 02 I swapped in a box from a mid-90s Suburban. It's a direct bolt in, and the ratio is around 2.75 or a lil lower. It mad a HUGE difference in steering, it was cheaper than a Dodge box, and it bolted right in...

Read back a little farther...I think I used a 95 1/2 ton box. There are a few here that are going to try it hopefully they will chime in...

 

[AsTroSS]

I am using '98 1500 (gas, 2wd) steering box, from side to side 3 turn

 

[David_411]

I am using '98 1500 (gas, 2wd) steering box, from side to side 3 turn

Isnt that a disadvantage going to half-ton steering box?

 

[Blue Blur]

Unfortunately they already basically are a 1/2 box anyway. These trucks need a more burly box period. But a quicker ratio is a good thing until something better comes along that can handle the weight of a Cummins.

 

[ky4wheeler]

anyone just went to hydro assist...or upgraded to a psc box. Use them on jeeps and they are worth their weight in gold.

 

[Lucky Jeff]

anyone just went to hydro assist...or upgraded to a psc box. Use them on jeeps and they are worth their weight in gold.

I thought everyone was having problems with PSC boxes? That's why I rarely see anyone buying them..

 

[Blue Blur]

All you can get from PSC is hydro assist because a 2nd gen box alone isnt strong enough except maybe for some 265s. They discontinued their 2nd gen boxes because they were tired of getting them sent back.

 

[mondtster]

I am using '98 1500 (gas, 2wd) steering box, from side to side 3 turn

That is what is on my truck as well right now. I rebuilt it and tightened it up. Seems to be doing ok so far.

Isnt that a disadvantage going to half-ton steering box?

Not really. The parts are the same size. The steering is just quicker.

anyone just went to hydro assist...or upgraded to a psc box. Use them on jeeps and they are worth their weight in gold.

I've thought about it, and almost tapped my box when I rebuilt it. I don't think packaging would be that easy on a truck without a lift though, which is why I haven't pursued it yet.

 

[Blue Blur]

What is the status on these adapters?