Hamilton 4bt cam issue

Hey Zach,

I hate to kinda put you on the spot, but and maybe I have asked this question before, we have four first gens with over 260K on the lowest one and have never added zinc to the oil when we change it.

Are the factory cummins cams better when it comes to wearing than what a Hamilton grind is???? These trucks are not stock, but, have never had the valve springs or cams changed.

In your expert opinion, suppose I wanted to rebuild one of these first gens and see the benefit of an aftermarket Hamilton cam, would I be better off spending the money on a roller cam rather than paying for zinc additive the next 250k + miles?
 
Those cams were broke in back when they made good oil.

Have you pulled those cams and looked at them? Measured lift?

75% the cams I take out of late 80's to mid 90's industrial equipment have "junk" cams in them. They are of the same design as first gens. They were in, functioning, making the valves go up and down in a timely fashion, but pitted, wore, ect to where you, me, and the next guy would never put them back in.
 
I second that ^^

I have 4 12 valves tore down in my shop and all of the cams out of them are pitted to hell.
 
Thanks for the answer. Surprisingly, we've only had our racing engine tore down to the cam. The cam in it looked pretty good, but, the engine was a cummins re-man.

So what do you think, go the expense of a roller to negate the zinc additive??
 
If you will look at some of the verbage in your link. I think you will find some plagiarism, from our procedure, specifications and profiles...........

There is a slight possibility that break in procedure instructions can be quite similar between different businesses. Not sure what your trying to prove here. I'd argue the opposite.
 
Thanks for the answer. Surprisingly, we've only had our racing engine tore down to the cam. The cam in it looked pretty good, but, the engine was a cummins re-man.

So what do you think, go the expense of a roller to negate the zinc additive??

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the zinc additive was only a requirement for break-in of the cam...and not something that had to be added continually for the life of the setup.

I'm sure you know this, but there are still CI4 high zinc oils around, like the AME Amsoil 15-40 synthetic marine oil.

--Eric
 
Hey Zach,

I hate to kinda put you on the spot, but and maybe I have asked this question before, we have four first gens with over 260K on the lowest one and have never added zinc to the oil when we change it.

Are the factory cummins cams better when it comes to wearing than what a Hamilton grind is???? These trucks are not stock, but, have never had the valve springs or cams changed.

In your expert opinion, suppose I wanted to rebuild one of these first gens and see the benefit of an aftermarket Hamilton cam, would I be better off spending the money on a roller cam rather than paying for zinc additive the next 250k + miles?

Don't mind being put on the spot at all. Wear is all relative to each setup, it just is not as easy as making a blanket statement on OEM vs. Hamilton. Our cams are made by a Cummins supplier so the quality of the ductile chill cast core is as good as OEM. If we had the OEM 12v 1.10" tappet and the OEM .715"-.865" lobe width with the OEM profile vs the OEM profile on our 1.45" tappet and our 1.040" lobe width, then yes I would say wear would be much less, because of the higher surface area to support the oil film. The reason you cannot compare the two combos is that we have higher lift, profiles which experience higher spring pressures on top of sharper nose angles from increased lift. Below is the equation we use to calculate the load on the pushrod and the tappet, factoring for the average cylinder pressure, seat pressure of the springs and the rocker ratio.

792,000xBHP/C.I.x rpm=avg cyl pressure

325hp at crank = 273 at the wheels= 275psi 600 hp at crank=504 at wheels= 509psi. 750=630hp at the wheels=636psi 1000=840hp at the wheels=848psi 1200=1008hp at the wheels=1018 psi

24v with stock valve size, 1.34:1 rocker and 110# springs (exhaust)

275 hp=273psi x 2.65sq in= 728 lbs +220lbs spring press. X 1.34 exh. rocker ratio is 1271 lbs.

504hp= 2102 lbs force on pushrod

630= 2553lbs on pushrod

1000=3306 lbs on pushrod

1200= 3909 lbs on pushrod


12v with stock valve size, OEM spring pressure and 1.69:1 rocker(exhaust)

275 hp=273psi x 2.46sq in= 671 lbs + 80lbs spring press. X 1.69 exh. rocker ratio is 1269 lbs.

504hp= 2259lbs force on pushrod

630= 2779lbs on pushrod

1000=3660 lbs on pushrod

1200= 4367 lbs on pushrod

Also, In the past I almost never saw cam or tappet wear. We advised customers that they could use old tappets if they did not want to go to the trouble of changing them out. After oils changed around 2008 or so, we started seeing more wear and started advising customers to change tappets every time the cam was changed. Although this is only anecdotal evidence to run higher zinc oils, I don't think it should be ignored. If you run higher lift, higher spring pressure setup, I would run additive or Higher zinc oils like Joe Gibbs DP-40. I suggest oils with zinc and phosphorus at or above 1500PPM.

Also something to note, I recently pulled the cam out of my 2014 dodge with only 7,500 miles, and found a lobe wiped on the first cylinder and a tappet that was severely concave. This is with the Large 1.5" tappets and the 1.250" lobe width. Absence of zinc and phosphorus is a recipe for lobe failure in my opinion.

On the calculations, plug in your seat pressure, rpm, rocker ratio and C.I. etc and see what pressures your cam experiences.

On the question of roller cam vs flat tappet, since the low lift is much slower with the roller profile compared to a flat tappet with 1.5" follower, you would see a performance decrease going to a roller profile, although you would see a longevity benefit. In my mind the cost does not justify the benefit. $700+ on rollers, machining of $600+ custom pushrods at $250+ and a new cam at $600+. $2000+ pays for a flat tappet cam or two to be changed out.
 
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There is a slight possibility that break in procedure instructions can be quite similar between different businesses. Not sure what your trying to prove here. I'd argue the opposite.

I understand how you came to your conclusion. It really is not that big of a deal to you, I get it.

If you developed a product, a business and a process with hundreds of thousands of dollars and thousands of hours, and then had someone take intricacies you developed, duration and lift specs from your entire catalog and tweaked them a scoche and sold them as their own independent thought, you might feel a bit differently. I guess I am saying if I was never born, their procedures and profile catalog would look quite differently. Until you can personalize the thousands of hours worked by placing yourself in my shoes, my claim might look like a bit of an exaggeration.

What do you do for a living? Do you work for yourself? Do you have a family to support? If you do not work for yourself, do you ever invest money earned by the sweat of your brow for the future?

Cheers,
Zach
 
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Hey Zach,

I hate to kinda put you on the spot, but and maybe I have asked this question before, we have four first gens with over 260K on the lowest one and have never added zinc to the oil when we change it.

Are the factory cummins cams better when it comes to wearing than what a Hamilton grind is???? These trucks are not stock, but, have never had the valve springs or cams changed.

In your expert opinion, suppose I wanted to rebuild one of these first gens and see the benefit of an aftermarket Hamilton cam, would I be better off spending the money on a roller cam rather than paying for zinc additive the next 250k + miles?


Tonight I was inspecting cams for re-use. All 6 came out of 94-98 dodge 12v's. 4 were deemed not fit to use at a glance. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that after a good cleaning the other 2 will look good.
 
Our newly released CI4+ based oil has been boosted to over 2000 PPM ZDDP, so it has all the zinc and phosphorus you need/want for a streetable performance diesel engine oil.

FYI, my Junker Drag Truck is running a Hamilton Steel Cam 188/220 without bushings, just the factory 250k mile block and the new steel cam/re-used 24v tappets, and Hamilton 185# dual valve springs. Lash is staying put, and motor is still happy, despite the 10 second long 5500+ rpm run-away at the track in last fall... and of course, I'm running our conventional 15W-40 engine oil.

http://www.powerdrivendiesel.com/product/conventional-15w-40-boosted-with-zddp/

If you decide to buy some oil, be sure to use coupon code "OIL" and get 25% off, it's our current Valentines promotion.

eDSC_08892.jpg
 
On the calculations, plug in your seat pressure, rpm, rocker ratio and C.I. etc and see what pressures your cam experiences.

Yeeaaa... gonna jump right on that immediately after I get back from my last space/time continuum trip.

Good to know, Will.
 
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