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Zstroken you arent saying all those fossils in the smithsonian were made by scientist deep in a cave trying to disprove god are you? Dude if you think that, thats scary man. Soemtimes I get skeered, I get skeered in a cave, i get skeered of heights and you just skeered me.

Please do not skeer me again
 
jponder said:
Zstroken you arent saying all those fossils in the smithsonian were made by scientist deep in a cave trying to disprove god are you? Dude if you think that, thats scary man. Soemtimes I get skeered, I get skeered in a cave, i get skeered of heights and you just skeered me.

Please do not skeer me again
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Well how do you know they are real, just cause someone told you where they came from?
 
Alright all this "poof" talk got me thinking
So in the creation of the universe first there was nothing then it exploded, which created #2 fuel, diesels and comp d. Right?

Nothing can not explode. Right?

Something (the explosion)can't be made out of nothing. Right?

Or on the other hand there has always been something there. This something is God. This can not be explained. We (believers in the bible) are told in the bible that there are somethings the human mind can not understand (I would be willing to give it a shot but ok). These questions will be answered if we live the life that God wants us to and go to Heaven.

So what seems more real:

Nothing exploding?

Or knowing that there is a God that we can not even began to understand watching over us?
 
I'd like to know what is on the other side of a black hole
(not racist, it's blackLOL).

I bet that is were God is.
 
zstroken said:
Well how do you know they are real, just cause someone told you where they came from?
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Yeah i just think they are scientist searching for truth, they wouldnt lie, Why lie? They dont care what the answer is, they just want to find it.

Christians OTOH already have their mind up and they will see what they want to, they are not pure like a true scientist.

I guess i do fundamentally view them as different.

Scientist: Mind aint made up aint nevah going to be made up always searching and thinking
Believer: mind is made up aint never going to not made up thats it end of story

I guess thats why if you asked me who would i believe first, A Baptist preacher or a PHD Physics and man it aint close, I would take that PHD over that lying preacher any day of the week.

Thats why i believe those bones are real is i hold scientist in the highest regard
 
Ponder and Charles have some great thoughts. I'd love to sit down and talk to you guys one day. The way y'all express yourselves is amazing IMO.

I have a problem with the subject of religion myself. I was told since birth that god created man, Jesus walked and then died for our sins and was resurected.

Once I got into college and began seeing other peoples opinions and beliefs and really digging deep into my own heart to try and decide what I believe.

My girlfriend at this moment was raised baptist and had a problem with me being confused.

I'm still trying to figure out what I believe.

I guess it really boils down to the fact that I'm scared that if I don't believe I will go to hell. I'm not afraid to die I just don't want to go to hell if there is an option. I've already come to terms that I think the world will come to an end in the near future. Maybe not b 2012 but I'd say withinmy lfetime. I guess I need to figure it out LOL
 
Charles said:
I never intended to.

Again, I'm not arguing against God. I'm arguing against the childish stories you've been sold since you were young. All I did was explain how muscle tissue works since you were under the impression that the only reason we all don't just lay on the ground motionless was because of "Soul power", when it's clearly because our muscle tissue contracts and relaxes and moves us around.
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Either you misunderstood me, or I didn't explain myself well enough. I understand biology and how it works. But IMHO biology can't explain why a person would donate blood to save a complete stranger, or why someone would stop to save a turtle from traffic, or the myriad other things people do that have nothing to do with biology or primal instincts. Biology also doesn't explain the evil that man perpetrates on his fellow human being. I believe that there is a God, and the is a devil and it's because of those influences that people do what they do.
 
CLINT_FX4_TxBoy said:
There's no end. There are parallel universes. Maybe god is in one of those
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Where do the parallel universes end or begin and what are they in and where does that take you???

Man cannot begin to explain it only theorize it, you cannot look out into space and not believe even by the slightest margin that someone created it all.
The human body, the brain, Blood and all the other other things around that you see smell and feel, you have to be pretty blind and ignorant to think it all came from a single cell or big bang.:doh:
 
jponder said:
Yeah i just think they are scientist searching for truth, they wouldnt lie, Why lie? They dont care what the answer is, they just want to find it.

Christians OTOH already have their mind up and they will see what they want to, they are not pure like a true scientist.

I guess i do fundamentally view them as different.

Scientist: Mind aint made up aint nevah going to be made up always searching and thinking
Believer: mind is made up aint never going to not made up thats it end of story

I guess thats why if you asked me who would i believe first, A Baptist preacher or a PHD Physics and man it aint close, I would take that PHD over that lying preacher any day of the week.

Thats why i believe those bones are real is i hold scientist in the highest regard
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Why wouldn't the scientist lie? If something would dispprove the theories they have been professing to be true all of the sudden(poof) wouldn't that bring all sorts of questioning to what their motives are? I mean look at the climate change folks, they are back peddling all the time from global warming, to global cooling(I mean climate change). Of course you keep calling them scientist, they are archeoligist, where do they get their money from for their studies? It typically comes from someone or groups of someones who have goals aligned somewhat with the archeologist beliefs/area of study.

I am not saying the archeologist I am posing the hypothetical question that why do you believe someone who has a PHD over someone who doesn't? Did the person with the PHD have more money/power to help him get in that position, and the other did not? Sounds like the PHD is closer to a politician or a lawyer.

I will admit there are crooked preachers, there are crooked lawyers, crooked politicians, crooked accountants, crooked business leaders etc, etc. I am sure there are crooked archeologist. We don't hear much about them, maybe that is because they have been feeding you a line all of these years, and they are all crooked? Just food to ponder...
 
Not a slam on science. I lean towards logic myself, but if the cash cow wants a certain result then that's what the cash cow will get.
I believe there are good scientists, as well as corrupt scientists. I don't know if Dr. Frankenstein was a good one or a bad one.
He wanted to be like God.
 
Snedge said:
Not a slam on science. I lean towards logic myself, but if the cash cow wants a certain result then that's what the cash cow will get.
I believe there are good scientists, as well as corrupt scientists. I don't know if Dr. Frankenstein was a good one or a bad one.
He wanted to be like God.
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Exactly, that is the point I am trying to illustrate, minus the Frankenstein stuff.
 
jponder said:
Yeah i just think they are scientist searching for truth, they wouldnt lie, Why lie? They dont care what the answer is, they just want to find it.

Christians OTOH already have their mind up and they will see what they want to, they are not pure like a true scientist.

I guess i do fundamentally view them as different.

Scientist: Mind aint made up aint nevah going to be made up always searching and thinking
Believer: mind is made up aint never going to not made up thats it end of story

I guess thats why if you asked me who would i believe first, A Baptist preacher or a PHD Physics and man it aint close, I would take that PHD over that lying preacher any day of the week.

Thats why i believe those bones are real is i hold scientist in the highest regard
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This post right here sums it up.

Scientists that adhere to the scientific method are only seeking truth.

Religious people are only seeking support for their pre-concieved notions.


Notice that scientists use the term Theory.... That is a supported hypothesis. A hypothesis is merely a preliminary "best guess" explanation to which experimentation and observation can either support or disprove. The beauty is that the scientist alters his hypothesis as experimentation and observation provide new information and data. Once sufficient support has been amassed his hypothesis reaches the level of a theory. Such as the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution, the germ theory of disease. Any one of those would change TOMORROW if new information collected by anyone on planet earth was found valid, and in fact disproved any theory in existence. Based on the new info the scientific theory would have to be altered to a new one that worked with the new finding.

And when this happens all the scientists are INCREDIBLY EXCITED! They are NOT frustrated..... they are ECSTATIC in fact, because they are that much closer to the truth. Their goal...


Whenever the religious mind encounters contradictory data they dismiss it, or as has been the case throughout history, they DESTROY it, kill those who uncovered it and throw them in the hole they bury the evidence in.....

That or they destroy the person's credibility and send them away, or have them committed.

Lastly, in time all cover-ups eventually come to light, and people eventually tell them they're retarded and fos at which point the religious will say..... well that's what we were saying all along. After all, the bible is perfect. Especially when you have the ability to bend the meaning as you see fit, to have certain parts be taken literally, and then later have them be taken metaphorically.... how convenient.

Don't think so? Well then you might want to check out the story of Galileo and the heliocentric vs geocentric planetary model I've referenced more than once in this thread as a perfect example of the church using the bible in place of observable evidence as their explanation of the world around them, and being WRONG.... and ruining lives on the basis of "heresey" against the church.

In the good old days they just killed anyone who mentioned anything other than what they said was right. In the case of Galileo they destroyed his life, and confined him to his own home until he died.


Now you tell me how I'm supposed to believe the motives of the religious are just, and those of scientist seeking truth are corrupt?

The whole thought-process behind that sort of notion is just incredibly naive.

History has proven time and time again that religion works to secure it's OWN self-preservation, and science works to secure TRUTH.

This isn't some kind of current event.
 
Charles said:
This post right here sums it up.

Scientists that adhere to the scientific method are only seeking truth.

Religious people are only seeking support for their pre-concieved notions.


Notice that scientists use the term Theory.... That is a supported hypothesis. A hypothesis is merely a preliminary "best guess" explanation to which experimentation and observation can either support or disprove. The beauty is that the scientist alters his hypothesis as experimentation and observation provide new information and data. Once sufficient support has been amassed his hypothesis reaches the level of a theory. Such as the theory of gravity, the theory of evolution, the germ theory of disease. Any one of those would change TOMORROW if new information collected by anyone on planet earth was found valid, and in fact disproved any theory in existence. Based on the new info the scientific theory would have to be altered to a new one that worked with the new finding.

And when this happens all the scientists are INCREDIBLY EXCITED! They are NOT frustrated..... they are ECSTATIC in fact, because they are that much closer to the truth. Their goal...


Whenever the religious mind encounters contradictory data they dismiss it, or as has been the case throughout history, they DESTROY it, kill those who uncovered it and throw them in the hole they bury the evidence in.....

That or they destroy the person's credibility and send them away, or have them committed.

Lastly, in time all cover-ups eventually come to light, and people eventually tell them they're retarded and fos at which point the religious will say..... well that's what we were saying all along. After all, the bible is perfect.

Don't think so? Well then you might want to check out the story of Galileo and the heliocentric vs geocentric planetary model I've referenced more than once in this thread as a perfect example of the church using the bible in place of observable evidence as their explanation of the world around them, and being WRONG.... and ruining lives on the basis of "heresey" against the church.

In the good old days they just killed anyone who mentioned anything other than what they said was right. In the case of Galileo they destroyed his life, and confined him to his own home until he died.


Now you tell me how I'm supposed to believe the motives of the religious are just, and those of scientist seeking truth are corrupt?

The whole thought-process behind that sort of notion is just incredibly naive.

History has proven time and time again that religion works to secure it's OWN self-preservation, and science works to secure TRUTH.

This isn't some kind of current event.
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You just used a HUGE damn brush to generalize a lot of people.

There is a mixture of good and bad people everywhere. Whatever ratio that is in general population, it's pretty darn close in sciencentist and religious people. So how/why do you generalize the religious and scientist as you do?

Surely there are self-serving scientists, and ones that will bend the facts to support something they need to. Plenty of examples....just as there are plenty religious folk and institutions that don't persectute others that don't agree with them.
 
02BigD said:
You just used a HUGE damn brush to generalize a lot of people.

There is a mixture of good and bad people everywhere. Whatever ratio that is in general population, it's pretty darn close in sciencentist and religious people. So how/why do you generalize the religious and scientist as you do?

Surely there are self-serving scientists, and ones that will bend the facts to support something they need to. Plenty of examples....just as there are plenty religious folk and institutions that don't persectute others that don't agree with them.
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Um....

If you honestly think that all the stories in the bible are 100% true, and that nothing in the bible is possibly in error, or even capable of error, then you haven't been generalized by my post. You define it.

I think you will find that 99.99% of all people who believe in the bible stories match the above definition to a T.

The key point is the inability to even IMAGINE that the bible could be in error, even in the face of it's having been proven wrong by increased human understanding of the world around us throughout recorded history.

To be religious (in terms of spirituality) by definition means that you accept things without any evidence to support that acceptance. And in fact, accept things in the face of contradictory evidence...

How much more insane can you get? Anyone in that boat is 100% NOT objective and 100% NOT trustworthy when it comes to providing objective information to others. Because they can't even provide objective information to THEMSELVES!

And that's the real issue here with your and my last posts. The ability and tendency of religious people vs scientists to provide objective information to others.

Since the very defining characteristic of being religious is to not be objective, I fail to see how this is even debatable. In fact it's not, unless we're willing to throw logic under the bus, because a logical debate can NOT be made for the religious here.

Lucky for the religious being logical is NOT a requirement in their lives. Again.... by the very definition of believing in something without valid support, and in the face of contradictory evidence.

Seriously. There is no logic there. No objectivity.


The two main ingredients to finding truth, and right out of the gate the religious crowd is out of the race.
 
Everyone should realize that any frustration here isn't in the fact that we're discussing a difference of opinion on truth.

The frustration is in the lack of ability to do so because only one party in the discussion adheres to a system of logic and rational thought.

Because once you step outside that..... you can think/do anything you want. And when you aren't accountable to logic, then a logical discussion is obviously impossible. As this thread proves.
 
Charles said:
Everyone should realize that any frustration here isn't in the fact that we're discussing a difference of opinion on truth.

The frustration is in the lack of ability to do so because only one party in the discussion adheres to a system of logic and rational thought.

Because once you step outside that..... you can think/do anything you want. And when you aren't accountable to logic, then a logical discussion is obviously impossible. As this thread proves.
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LOL, your trying to convince everyone that archeologist don't have opinions and possibly have their own view of things. You said it yourself, that they are happy when their theories and hypothesis appear to be correct. So don't you think that could form a little bit of bias in their findings? They are also happy when the get the grant money to study evolution for another 4 years also.

I like how you avoid alot of my direct questions, is there more scientists than religious folks?

Your basically saying because someone is a scientist that they don't lie or cheat, and if your religious you do. I am over simplifying it, but I am trying to summarize it in the Jerry Springer version for you.


Once again this is for arguments sake.
 
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