Super and Turbo Charged 1.9 TDI

I'm curious... where would you be hooking up the supercharger? I assume you have plans to alter the timing belt path or the serpentine path?

If you can do custom pulleys and find a custom length belt, it may work... but you won't necessarily be smoke free. That will require a professional tuner to work with your car and custom setup. Don't be fooled by "chips" and the "evry" mod, they are not appropriate for compound type setups.

I didn't see this over at tdiclub, (I'll look), but even though those guys can be pessimistic all the time, they're often right.

My recommendation is.. avoid failure with this motor. They are the most economical automotive engine you can buy, and when properly tuned they're a blast.

If you want very low smoke, go with a vnt17/22 and titan nozzles from boraparts.com... Save your money for a vcds diagnostic system and the dozens of expensive custom tools that mkiv and mkv tdis require. These things can be a lot of trouble to keep up with even without custom high hp setups.

Look up Jeff at rocketchips, (jsrmonster at tdiclub). Or mike- (vwmikel at tdiclub). These guys are some of the best tdi tuners in the country and could better explain why this project would our would not work than anyone out there. They can also get you up to speed on the real costs of a project like this. I suspect it will be much more expensive than you think, because you're looking at axle snapping 3rd gear stripping torque.

Scott dewitt has built a few beefed up 02J transmissions that can withstand more torque. Look for him at tdiclub too, scott_dewitt I think.

If you're just after a fun project to make the car faster, nothing will be faster than mark smith's "G3F" mkiv kit car. You can keep the diesel engine, move it to the back of the car, cut off the body, etc. and loose weight. Look up "smyth performance" on facebook or find the smyth performance thread at the factory five forums.

Good luck whichever way you decide to go!
 
HE221 is good for around 250-280bhp. There is a 2.5TDI with one and it has tad over 280hp. 1.8bar boost. 0.1bar more and EMPs skyrocket. I tuned another 2.5TDI with GT3267WG with .45trim compressor and otherwise similar setup. Exept for proper IC vs. a stock unit in the GT32 one. We got 245hp with 1.5bar with the stock ic. And boost reponse is aparently very similar than with the HE in the other volvo.
 
hatemi said:
HE221 is good for around 250-280bhp. There is a 2.5TDI with one and it has tad over 280hp. 1.8bar boost. 0.1bar more and EMPs skyrocket. I tuned another 2.5TDI with GT3267WG with .45trim compressor and otherwise similar setup. Exept for proper IC vs. a stock unit in the GT32 one. We got 245hp with 1.5bar with the stock ic. And boost reponse is aparently very similar than with the HE in the other volvo.
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what does EMP stand for?
 
i used all kerma stuff from charle in my o3 golf, ran 14.6 all day but traction limited on 18's and at 94mph.. was fairly smoke free, vng 022, race nozzles, rockenteck programed ecu, spec standard weight stage 2, quafe dif, and averaged about 40mpg at around 80mph average..
 
yes it may never be completely smoke free, but would have very good throttle response and aggressive boost curve. I wouldn't be tuning this myself, I would have custom maps built for the setup.

Custom belts are not that difficult to come by, and neither are custom pulleys. I would run the charger of the timing belt or would make a dedicated pulley/ belt setup for the charger.

The duramax and powerstoke guys are running this set up with good success, just try searching procharged etc in the search here.
 
Also now that I've been thinking about it, the psi isn't as important than the CFM the charger outputs. I think in sizing the charger you would need to ensure it produced enough airflow to properly allow the turbo to breath. This can be seen by how large of a procharger (F1C) is used on the duramax trucks running anything from stock to gt45's....
 
joediesel said:
Custom belts are not that difficult to come by, and neither are custom pulleys. I would run the charger of the timing belt or would make a dedicated pulley/ belt setup for the charger.
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I didn't know that custom belts and pulleys were easy to find. Are you talking about one or two companies? I'd like to have their names for future reference! :D

I'd really like to know where you are putting the supercharger. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just can't think of any position that there would be room for such a part to be installed even near the timing belt path. My first thought was that you would be deleting the P/S pump or the A/C compressor to make room for a supercharger.

Just in case you don't already know, this is an interference engine, so if ANYTHING goes wrong with your timing belt system the head, valves, and pistons, are tooefed. If you alter the timing belt path, you absolutely must alter the covers so that they continue to fully protect the belt path from dirt/rocks/etc.

Also, there's not a lot of room in the engine bay to actually get at and change the belt. If you make it wider, (I'm pretty sure it's a good idea to make it wider since you're increasing the load on the belt), you're going to turn the normally aggravating job of changing the timing belt/rollers/tensioner/water pump/bolts- into a job where the the engine needs to be pulled to get your hand in there at all.

Can I ask a couple more questions? Have you changed a timing belt on a TDI before? Do you have VCDS yet? (It's NOT an option if you're installing a timing belt, it is a required tool)

joediesel said:
The duramax and powerstoke guys are running this set up with good success, just try searching procharged etc in the search here.
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Guy, the problem isn't with the theory behind your idea- the concept is great and it works great. It's not the first time I've heard of this setup. (For a truck)

The problem is that experienced truck guys aren't always ready for an engine like the TDIs. They are more fragile, there is no room under the hood to put stuff, big power will snap things that there is no way to beef up. The timing belt in particular is a major point of failure on these cars- it's a very easy job to screw up, even when nothing being done is custom.

And... I'm not sure you believed me when I said the low end torque this kind of setup will generate will be drive-train destroying. So, give it another chance. Engine tuners have to limit fueling in the low-rpm range to avoid broken components. This is the rpm range that a compound setup is increasing torque most. All I'm saying is... get your wallet out now, and don't plan on putting it away once you get started on this project. :)
 
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Do not buy parts from Kerma. PM me. TRUST ME.

Here's a quick list of things that must come before slapping on a super/turbo combo:

1. Arp head studs
2. Lower CR pistons/rods
3. Southbend clutch
4. Audi TT contol arm bushings
5. Subframe stabilizer bars
6. Custom welded intake manifold (to remove stock restriction)
7. 3-bar MAP
8. Custom head porting/polishing by Franko6
9. Custom FMIC
10. Colt Cam Stage 2
11. Custom exhaust manifold (for special turbo and/or super)
12. 11mm injection pump
13. Lift pump from a newer TDI
14. CCV filter
15. EGT and Boost gauges
16. Extremely good nozzles- (do not **** around and guess at which ones are good by the website description, TALK to a tuner. They know which injectors are actually good and which ones are crap.
17. Real rubber. Time to throw away your economy H-rated tires and buy tires that are closer to $200 a piece. 16" or 17" are the only proper options for high performance tires for the Golf/Jetta/New Beetle.

There, that's a good start. I'm sure I left stuff out. If you neglect any of these upgrades you will run into trouble actually achieving the high rpm power this setup deserves, getting the power to the ground, keeping oil in your motor, keeping your head gasket from leaking, etc.
 
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I would run the belt off of your accessories belt. Just get a longer belt and you will probably need some pulleys. Dont mess with the timing belt.

Manual Tranny: There is penty of room to fit a supercharger. Its all about, can you think outside of the box? All the guys on TDIclub dont. Sounds like you spend alot of time on there!
 
mhop said:
I would run the belt off of your accessories belt. Just get a longer belt and you will probably need some pulleys. Dont mess with the timing belt.

Manual Tranny: There is penty of room to fit a supercharger.
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I suppose you missed the part where I suggested he run the charger in place of the A/C or P/S? That is thinking outside the box. Oh, also, it's basically the same advice you gave.

Have you actually worked on these engines? I just want to know a physical location for a supercharger that fits under the hood. I'm not being negative, I'm not having trouble thinking outside the box. I just don't know where the hell it's going to go if the rest of the accessories stay in place. I know this motor and engine space like the back of my hand.

mhop said:
Its all about, can you think outside of the box? All the guys on TDIclub dont. Sounds like you spend alot of time on there!
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That's outrageous. There are a lot of curmudgeons on tdiclub, but there is a LOT of thinking outside the box. It sounds like you DON'T do a lot of reading around there.
 
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I just reviewed my advice and suggestions. I will stand behind every word.

If you're unclear about why I suggested something, it means you don't understand it yet. That's fine.

Ask questions.
 
I have a TDI. I would say i know my car. Ill take a pic with where I would put it. I have a supercharger that im going to be putting on a TDI build I have going on.
 
That would be AWESOME.

I really am not opposed to the idea at all, except to say that the VNT turbochargers will still give a setup like this a good run for its money. (while being cheaper and more efficient)

Would these pictures help?

SSPX0146.jpg

SSPX0147.jpg
 
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Looks by your sig mhop, that you have a Rocketchip tune...

If I had noticed that I wouldn't have asked you if you had worked on your car or done your homework. :eek:

He's really the best out there for these motors... good guy too. He's tuned two of my cars, (one is a gasser, unfortunately).
 
I've found some interesting conversations about projects like this.

TDIClub Forums-supercharged tdi?

READ PAST the guys in the thread who are against it arbitrarily. In there somewhere are a few good ideas, like this: TDIClub Forums

Check with this forum:
Build Thread:- Golf Supercharged TDI-R 4motion Nurburg Spec - uk-mkivs


This guy first mounted an electric supercharger (he says it helped a little with boost lag) He also claims to have plans for a real supercharger soon, perhaps you might want to join uk-mkivs.net (though like most older threads on the subject it's hard to tell if people are really doing this or if they're bull***tting.)

And here's another good discussion on the subject:

Why arent Diesel Cars Supercharged?? - Team-BHP
 
these are the 2 spots i would put it.
 

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I like your first picture- there in front of the injection pump! If you can build a bracket that works, I'd love to see the results! Picture #2- over the valve cover, I assume you would cut the hood? :D I figured we were talking about modifying within the engine bay, but if you don't mind it sticking out (probably only OK for a drag car) that would be very cool! :D

I was also thinking about the vacuum pump... if you could find a way to combine the vacuum pump and the supercharger to the driver's side of the camshaft, you might be able to run a supercharger off the cam somehow. There is a little more room on that side of the engine.
 
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