Twin Charged 4BT, Eaton M122, HE341VE

[TRUBBS]

sweet swap. one day when out 4runner engine finally fails id like to swap a small diesel engine into it

 

[Joesixpack]

Thats a really bad controller.
VGT turbos need to be adjusted based on engine load for both performance and efficiency. VGTs are most efficient in the 50% range. With no throttle position or EMP input, the controller is "flying blind" and is little better than using a simple wastegate actuator. It will also sacrifice spoolup ability, VGTs primary benefit. If you were controlling your VGT properly you wouldn't need a supercharger to get good low end response.

X2. I can show you a data log of boost practically peaking the same time as the throttle on a 2012 duramax LML going from cruise to WOT.

Good VGT control has to have a smart controller and load/throttle feedback.

 

[steed]

Thats a really bad controller.
VGT turbos need to be adjusted based on engine load for both performance and efficiency. VGTs are most efficient in the 50% range. With no throttle position or EMP input, the controller is "flying blind" and is little better than using a simple wastegate actuator. It will also sacrifice spoolup ability, VGTs primary benefit. If you were controlling your VGT properly you wouldn't need a supercharger to get good low end response.

My controller works fine, it has two functions automatic responses and manual control of the vane. Cracks me up, how a lot of people think VGT's need to have a lot of information to control the VGT. It really doesn't, boost pressure sensor is all you need and it will work better then a standard non-VGT turbo. The Boost pressure sensor changes the position of the vane based on engine load.

However, if you want a better control you can add a TPS and other sensors. But they wont give you better performance, the TPS can allow you to open up the turbo when you pull back off the throttle to lower drive pressure for better MPG. Then when you hit the gas close up to build pressure faster. Other then that it wont give you any better performance.

The HE351VE wont out perform the HE351CW in my opinion, they will be fairly similar in performance. The benefit of the Holset VGT is the exhaust brake and the ability to lower drive pressure. The smallest you can effetely set the HE351VE is to 9CM anything smaller then that you will be engine braking.

I ran diesel power products Vulcan 1 turbo with my controller and I blew my head gasket. Because it took a lot of fuel to light the 351, I took a HE341VE and swapped over the compressor housing to make a hybrid. With my fuel I now make 35PSI WOT, 5PSI cruising 60MPH in 5th. My controller takes it from 9CM to 16CM using the boost sensor, the manual control takes it from 3CM to 25CM.

If you don't believe me, make your own controller and prove me wrong. I have built quite a few controllers for people and I haven't gotten any complaints.

If you were controlling your VGT properly you wouldn't need a supercharger to get good low end response.

Running the turbo by itself, compared to supercharger by itself and twin charged is a night and day difference! My little 4BT feels like a totally different engine.

The HE341VE wheel and turbine are huge for a 4BT, my motor came with a HX30W which is a lot smaller in comparison. It takes a lot of fuel to get these Turbo's to light no matter which VGT controller you have. Like I said before Holset VGTs can only close to 9CM and still effectively spool. Anything less your engine braking while trying to drive.

My truck weights 5300lbs, with 35" tires with bead locks and 3.54 gears I'm pushing 1600RPMs in 5th going 60MPH. I can now pass cars with ease going down the road. Before I would have to down shift and give it a lot of gas.

 

[steed]

X2. I can show you a data log of boost practically peaking the same time as the throttle on a 2012 duramax LML going from cruise to WOT.

Good VGT control has to have a smart controller and load/throttle feedback.

My controllers are capable of a lot more then how I set them up. But its impractical to make one with all kinds of sensors and expect to be able to put it on any engine.

That's why I use a boost sensor, its everything you need with the right programing to control the VGT. The issue with the Holset VGT is its just big.

You take my controller and run a HE351VE on any 6BT, power stroke or Duramax or gas engine it'll work just fine. You wont even notice its a VGT. If you run it on smaller motors you need more fuel to get it to light. I can make 35+ psi and still burn fairly clean but due to my gearing being to low its a pain in the ass to get up to speed.

Now with the VGT and supercharger it can go sideways when I accelerate hard. My issue is I'm producing to much boost to fast and its almost undrivable unless the VGT is wide open.

Right now I have a new Metco 3" pulley on the way and I'm going to add another idler under the supercharger for more wrap. Then I'm planning on adding a 60mm waste gate on the supercharger discharge to the intake side and set it to 10 psi. My idea is once the supercharger makes 10PSI its going to bleed the rest off into the intake pipe limiting the amount of boost the supercharger can make. Once the turbo lights above 10PSI its going to equalize the pressure on both sides of the supercharger. Which should take the load of the supercharger for the most part.

that should take care of my compounding boost issues.

 

[steed]

A little off topic of this thread but

I am an Electronic Warfare Staff Sergeant in the US Army, I don't make them for profit I do it as a hobby for enthusiast who want something different then everyone else.

My goal for my controllers will include a TPS, VSS and Turbo RPM sensor.

TPS, will allow you to improve MPG by backing off the throttle to open the vane of the turbo and close it back up to accelerate.

Speed sensor / TPS - Will assist the exhaust brake function, when the brake is engaged as soon as you take your foot off the gas will brake. Once you give it gas again you'll be able to accelerate like normal. The speed sensor will disengage the brake if your traveling under 20MPH or so. (right now its an on/off function)

Turbo RPM sensor is a over speed safety and just because it would be cool to have a gauge.

But in the end the turbo position would still only be controlled by the boost pressure sensor.

 

[Nukem]

My controller works fine

Thats because you've never experienced your turbo working properly.

it has two functions automatic responses and manual control of the vane.

Except that your "automatic" setup is very inefficient and has a very negative effect on spoolup.
"Its only going to be 6CM for about 10-15PSI to get it to light fast, then it will jump to 9CM for 25 - 30PSI then jump to 12CM for 40PSI."
Being set to "steps" causes large jumps in VGT position to fixed points. The result is you're little better than a fixed geometry turbine. As soon as you reach 15psi, your turbo's response is drastically reduced.

Manual control of the vanes is a useless gimmick to make the exhaust whistle at idle.

If your controller had a throttle input it would keep the vanes adjusted tight until the target boost is reached then vary the vane position to maintain the target pressure no matter the engine load:

Cracks me up, how a lot of people think VGT's need to have a lot of information to control the VGT. It really doesn't, boost pressure sensor is all you need and it will work better then a standard non-VGT turbo.

That is flat out wrong, you're not working with a wastegated turbo. VGTs require load/throttle input to work properly. Without it you either end up like yours with laggy/jerky response or you choke the exhaust flow at light loads.

The Boost pressure sensor changes the position of the vane based on engine load.

No, by your descriptions its changing position based only on boost output. Boost output in VGT turbos is not based on load. An engine at constant RPM and load can have drastically different boost pressure based solely on vane position.

the TPS can allow you to open up the turbo when you pull back off the throttle to lower drive pressure for better MPG. Then when you hit the gas close up to build pressure faster. Other then that it wont give you any better performance.

Sorry, no, that is the very definition of performance.

The HE351VE wont out perform the HE351CW in my opinion, they will be fairly similar in performance. The benefit of the Holset VGT is the exhaust brake and the ability to lower drive pressure.

That is proof you're not controlling your turbo correctly.

If you don't believe me, make your own controller and prove me wrong.

I already did back in 2005. Thats why I'm trying to share my experience and correct your false information.

I have built quite a few controllers for people and I haven't gotten any complaints.

Blind leading the blind. Need I say more?

 

[ShadowTrooper]

Thanks for that, Nukem. You said nearly everything I wanted to say.

I have been using a 58mm Garrett vgt (from 03 6.0 PSD) on my 12 for a year and a half, using the program you see screen shots of in nukems post. It works ok as a basic controller. With modifications I was able to make to the code, it works a lot better but still has a TON of potential.

With VGT you essentially need to have a desired airflow in (intake/boost), and potential energy out (fuel rate, exhaust airflow, and EGT). Many people assume that a turbo runs off exhaust airflow, but there's more to it.. People completely disregard the thermodynamic aspect of a turbine.

The reason for using egt revolves directly around controlling drive pressures. For example in my tests I was able to produce 40 psi of boost with as little as 23 psi drive pressure. Upping the drive pressure to 35psi netted no gain in boost.

Knowing how much exhaust potential you have will greatly decrease the latency, or time it takes for the controller to get the vanes to the best position possible for the demand requested (desired airflow in). This is about as complicated as it needs to get, as it can get more complicated but for diminishing returns.

Using just map pressure leaves the controller 'guessing' where it needs to put the vanes. If you include how much energy potential the exhaust has you can effectively set where the vanes go and how fast they get there. You need to move the vanes extremely quickly with low exhaust potential (low rpm). But if you are at high rpm, moving the vanes that quickly causes instability as it will close too far, open back up to compensate, so on. So knowing that you have a high amount of potential in the exhaust, you can move the vanes slower.

All this is to balance out the response of the turbo while still maintaining stability of the vanes.

 

[steed]

Blind leading the blind. Need I say more?

Its not hard to be a blind man teaching another blind man to read. The hard part it getting idiots to understand there's other ways to read when you cant see. op:

Anyways, to each their own, I learned when I first put it together that at 6CM it wont work. Like I said anything less then 9CM the exhaust brake kicks in at various degrees. My controllers are capable to be expanded in various ways, it all depends how creative the end user wants to be.


If you made a working controller, that used the factory ECU (doubtful) I believe the 6.7 came out in 2007 not 2005? If you did manage to figure it out in 2005 you would have realize the VGT actuators can only move in stepped positions. 3, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18, 19 ,21, 22, 24, 25. the turbo can not move to 5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20 and 23 CM^2. The VGT actuator on Holset Turbo's do not move in a linier fashion, it has to jump positions. Positions 3, 4, 6, and 7 engage the exhaust brake and are completely undriveable.

Moving the vane one CM like 9 to 10 in a minimal move, you would have to move it to 12. When you quoted me from my other thread it was my plan to hold 6CM for X psi. I hoped due to the smaller engine of the 4BT I can use it like a HX30. However that was when I first started getting this working, I soon realized that didn't work.

Now my controllers move the vane from 9, 12, 14, 16, 18, 21 24... 3 and 25 is only for the manual control to assist in cleaning the vane, warming up the engine and exhaust braking.

O yeah just FYI if you say you experimented with garret turbos that's a VNT not a VGT two completely different turbos with two completely different characteristics.

But at the end of the day I have a product that I warranty and stand behind, which I sell virtually at cost with $0 profit. I even reprogram them for free, as long as the customer covers shipping.

 

[steed]

Shadowtrooper, Garrett's variable nozzle Turbo's are different then the sliding wall that's in Holset VGT turbos. The way they perform are completely different.

Garrett uses a linear actuator, moving an arm in a controlled linear motion.

Holset uses a stepper motor which can only jump to preset positions.

 

[crackerman]

Nukem. Did you used to have a screen name Tormentor?

 

[ShadowTrooper]

Shadowtrooper, Garrett's variable nozzle Turbo's are different then the sliding wall that's in Holset VGT turbos. The way they perform are completely different.

Garrett uses a linear actuator, moving an arm in a controlled linear motion.

Holset uses a stepper motor which can only jump to preset positions.

I'm extremely familiar with the actuation mechanisms of Garrett's VNT and Holset's VGT, having disassembled, inspected, and played around with both setups, and I can safely say that the actuation method may be different, yes, but either one operates on the same principle : to act as a variable orifice to increase or decrease exhaust gas velocity over the blades of the turbine. When you don't have a lot of volume you make the orifice smaller to increase pressure which increases velocity. Then as you gain more volume you increase the size of the orifice to prevent excessive pressure.

However, if what you are saying is true about the stepper motor setup, it does indeed sound like the alternate stock mechanism utilizing a single acting spring loaded air piston would be infinitely more desirable, as it would give you more precise control over the vanes.

 

[steed]

Well I'm not a vender on Comp D and this thread is for supercharged 4BT not for my controllers.

Feel free to make another thread on VGT, VNT stand alone controllers I'm sure you guys have vast amount of knowledge people would be interested in reading.

 

[ShadowTrooper]

Well I'm not a vender on Comp D and this thread is for supercharged 4BT not for my controllers.

Feel free to make another thread on VGT, VNT stand alone controllers I'm sure you guys have vast amount of knowledge people would be interested in reading.

True. I apologize for the de-rail.
Seriously though, nice truck.

 

[steed]

No worries

I added a second pulley, I couldn't get as much wrap as I hoped. But its defiantly an improvement. I should get a new 3" pulley for the supercharger on the 8th, once I get that on it should be a lot better.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgK5AoDfUy4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgK5AoDfUy4[/ame]

 

[ShadowTrooper]

No worries

I added a second pulley, I couldn't get as much wrap as I hoped. But its defiantly an improvement. I should get a new 3" pulley for the supercharger on the 8th, once I get that on it should be a lot better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgK5AoDfUy4

Done any serious fueled runs yet? I'm seriously considering a progressive setup using the compound vgt's I already had in mind with a PD supercharger.

 

[steed]

No not yet, I don't have head studs so I'm afraid of getting on it to hard. I've just been driving around with the VGT wide open trying to limit my boost.

I have a #10 fuel plate and 7X.10 injectors. I did have .024 delivery valves installed but I would black out a 4 lane road when the turbo lit up.

I honestly like the supercharger way better then the turbo. With the turbo I would be cruising with 5PSI and I would hit 30-35 while I'm getting up to speed on the highway. I'm sure my low gearing wasn't helping my turbo though.

Once I get to Georgia I'm either going to put head studs in and start tuning it for high PSI or add the waste gate to keep my boost down.

 

[oldestof11]

Nukem. Did you used to have a screen name Tormentor?

You know... he shows up after bohab is banned, who showed up after tormentor was banned...

Not legal in any state.

He gets banned after I post this...

You know bohab. Its interesting. You have a good knowledge of Mercedes engines, Holsets turbos, want people to keep stock power ratings, act like a know it all, and joined a week or 2 after tormentor got banned.

If I have you wrong, sorry. But you started out as tormentor the same way after 300D or whatever it was got banned.

Carry on OP. I'm sure its been done.

Same time line... same know it all attitude... same knowledge of turbos.

 

[steed]

I just wanted to toss this out here real quick.

The basic controller which I use in my truck only uses a boost pressure sensor. This allows it to be 100% universal without making a one off, expensive kit.

The controller in this video is a controller I put together for a Toyota Supra, he uses a custom mega squirt ECU to determine VGT position based on engine conditions. The mega squirt sends out 0.5v signal to my controller which translates that signal into a CAN message which tells VGT actuator to change vane position.

Any custom ECU which can broadcast a analog signal or custom andreno microcontrollers can be used to monitor engine load.

The control nob is still used to assist in cleaning the vane

Concerns about not being a good controller design can easily be fixed by the hobbyist depending on their ingenuity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0QVpSqZQg

 

[steed]

You know... he shows up after bohab is banned, who showed up after tormentor was banned...

He gets banned after I post this...


Same time line... same know it all attitude... same knowledge of turbos.

lol that's funny

 

[madmikeismad]

How are EGT's with it being already spooled ALL the time? I can't read that gauge LOL