Truckers, lets see your rigs!

jfaulkner said:
It's nothing personal to you 97rada. I'm glad someone like you that actually believes in the product you work on, works at Cummins. And given the current engine choices available in a truck Cummins wins hands down. The issue is they're not trying to be the best, they're just trying to be slightly better than the others. The S60 Detroit was the last good engine Detroit has made. The DD15/DD13's are steaming piles. Pull the valve covers and you think your working on a Civic. The Maxxforce isn't worth using as a boat anchor but neither are the trucks they're in. The Paccar MX is my 2nd choice. Seem to be pretty reliable and power is good once the junk is removed. If your buying a new truck the Cummins is the turd with the best aftertaste.
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I don't take that stuff personal, but I do believe in the company I work for and what it originally stood for. I don't agree with some practices and do my best daily to make it better. Working on moving to the engineering side to help this crap. I agree that I hate we are the best turd on the market. These engines could be so much better if they put the time where they need to. It's a great base engine design in my opinion. If you ever need anything cummins you let me know.


To start at the top, the anti polish liner was created to combat the "dust out" from carbon. With that said you can get old liners still. The anti polish is just an option. I have not torn down an anti polish engine to see results.
And there really must be a lot of guys who refuse to use the dealers and distributors. I am curious as to why? What makes us so awful? I ask because I am blind to it and don't know.
When it comes to the head, we will install about anything as long as it's in good shape. N14 heads and older engines are getting terrible quality recon junk and I wouldn't run it if you payed me to. Find and rebuild parts for old stuff.
Isx heads that have the liners drop and put a grove in the head can be decked like .006 IRC to clean that up. Saves buying a head and can bushings take a few hours and are easy.
I do understand what your talking about with the check list crap. I skip/ jump and do my own thing. I want people on the road and coming back at there will and not sitting. It's created to help diagnostics because they refuse to educate technicians. They have a "quick serve " process that is supposed to be designed for the small sensors ect and jobs up to 4 hours. Again. I do my own thing and can pin point most problems in an hour or 2.
 
jfaulkner said:
Did you miss the part about the Big Cam having valve issues? The fuel system doesn't change the parts inside. Just if you choose to use an antique engine you will pay more for parts and wait longer to get them. A cam for an 855 is twice what a new engine cam is and you'll wear out a greyhound bus trying to find one.
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Nope didn't miss it.. though seams to be less problems with MD engine the HD engines, but not problem free either
 
97rada said:
I don't take that stuff personal, but I do believe in the company I work for and what it originally stood for. I don't agree with some practices and do my best daily to make it better. Working on moving to the engineering side to help this crap. I agree that I hate we are the best turd on the market. These engines could be so much better if they put the time where they need to. It's a great base engine design in my opinion. If you ever need anything cummins you let me know.


To start at the top, the anti polish liner was created to combat the "dust out" from carbon. With that said you can get old liners still. The anti polish is just an option. I have not torn down an anti polish engine to see results.
And there really must be a lot of guys who refuse to use the dealers and distributors. I am curious as to why? What makes us so awful? I ask because I am blind to it and don't know.
When it comes to the head, we will install about anything as long as it's in good shape. N14 heads and older engines are getting terrible quality recon junk and I wouldn't run it if you payed me to. Find and rebuild parts for old stuff.
Isx heads that have the liners drop and put a grove in the head can be decked like .006 IRC to clean that up. Saves buying a head and can bushings take a few hours and are easy.
I do understand what your talking about with the check list crap. I skip/ jump and do my own thing. I want people on the road and coming back at there will and not sitting. It's created to help diagnostics because they refuse to educate technicians. They have a "quick serve " process that is supposed to be designed for the small sensors ect and jobs up to 4 hours. Again. I do my own thing and can pin point most problems in an hour or 2.
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If I have a truck that needs a head why would I take it to Cummins to get the same head installed at $150 per hour when an independent shop will install the same head for $60hr? Parts are the same and parts warranty is the same.

There's a guy here that has built several gliders for his company. Insists he's getting a deal having Ohio Cat overhaul his motors. Paid $39,000 for a 6NZ but got a 4yr warranty. Now I'm not the best at math but he paid twice what it would have cost for a small shop to build it using the same parts doing the exact same work. There is no way that will ever pay back. That is a TON of warranty claims to ever break even.

Just looking back at the trucks I currently own (5) in the last 2yrs I've replaced a few idler pulleys, 1 carrier bearing and 2 rocker arms. I'm trying to figure out how I could ever justify paying twice for an engine overhaul to get a warranty from Cat/Cummins.
 
That all makes sense. I have always told them they are pricing themselves out of the market.
 
We pulled with a guy that ran an ISX in an 08 Pete. It was really only a toy. It only had 125,000 miles on it. He had programmers from Cummins following him around with multiple ECMs trying to find a program to run a big HP ISX for Australia. Not sure how it ever turned out. It still alive just doesn't get used much.

He had loads of power but never was able to hook to the track. He ran a power divider and a differential locker with super singles. He always wanted a big gear and the one night my dad convinced him to drop a gear it made a great pull.


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I'm in agreement with 97rada. We have just as many broken cats up here as cummins. I've tuned some 871's and 2250's on our dyno to 730hp to the tires. As long as boost is kept under 40 lbs they don't lift heads. Run extremely clean also. A fully deleted ISX is a pretty good truck. 6-7mpg grossing 160k 8 axle tankers. A 6NZ with 2707127 does about 630hp to the ground with all stock components. If you split the ECM and pull the bin file out you can take them to 770hp to the tires pretty easy and smoke free also. BUT there has been bad cat engines also. Some people think every thing that is yellow can go a million miles at 800hp with only oil changes. I've got lots of pics of broken cranks (1LW's)
blown head gaskets (especially with aftermarket parts like Interstate McBee lol. Burnt/cracked pistons. The best Cat setup is a converted BXS. We've made well over 1000hp with a billet single 80MM turbo (b-class limited) BXS block and Modified 10R0959 Injectors. Stock cam stock valve train 3000rpms (super secret squirrel ecm stuff). The Cats definitely rule anything beyond 800hp haha.

Once you take the emissions off a ddec 6 series 60 or DD engine they aren't too terrible. Still not something I would want though.

The MX13 paccar engine are pretty good. The stock fuel system and turbo can make 600hp out of that little engine. Every trip at that much hp would lift the head though. PDI is the only company dumb enough to send a 12.9L engine with 600hp to the ground out of their doors though.

The maxxforce 11,13 (EDC17CV42 only), and 15 aren't that awesome even deleted lol. We had a customer who wanted to take the twins off and single turbo it. Used a 75mm borg with a custom manifold adapter and a 1.15 ar turbine housing. Best we could get was like 430hp to the tires lol. With the twins on we can get about 460-470hp to the tires comfortably. Could go higher but they don't need help self destructing. The 15L maxxforce is SDP cat block/bottom end with International head, pistons, fuel system, and turbos. The maxxforce fuel system won't make much for hp on that platform either even though the bottom end can take it.

ISX's are like 6.0L's. Have a bad reputation for sure but with the right owners with some brains and a little bit of $ to upgrade/delete some parts they are pretty good engines.
 
atvracn08 said:
I'm in agreement with 97rada. We have just as many broken cats up here as cummins. I've tuned some 871's and 2250's on our dyno to 730hp to the tires. As long as boost is kept under 40 lbs they don't lift heads. Run extremely clean also. A fully deleted ISX is a pretty good truck. 6-7mpg grossing 160k 8 axle tankers. A 6NZ with 2707127 does about 630hp to the ground with all stock components. If you split the ECM and pull the bin file out you can take them to 770hp to the tires pretty easy and smoke free also. BUT there has been bad cat engines also. Some people think every thing that is yellow can go a million miles at 800hp with only oil changes. I've got lots of pics of broken cranks (1LW's)

blown head gaskets (especially with aftermarket parts like Interstate McBee lol. Burnt/cracked pistons. The best Cat setup is a converted BXS. We've made well over 1000hp with a billet single 80MM turbo (b-class limited) BXS block and Modified 10R0959 Injectors. Stock cam stock valve train 3000rpms (super secret squirrel ecm stuff). The Cats definitely rule anything beyond 800hp haha.



Once you take the emissions off a ddec 6 series 60 or DD engine they aren't too terrible. Still not something I would want though.



The MX13 paccar engine are pretty good. The stock fuel system and turbo can make 600hp out of that little engine. Every trip at that much hp would lift the head though. PDI is the only company dumb enough to send a 12.9L engine with 600hp to the ground out of their doors though.



The maxxforce 11,13 (EDC17CV42 only), and 15 aren't that awesome even deleted lol. We had a customer who wanted to take the twins off and single turbo it. Used a 75mm borg with a custom manifold adapter and a 1.15 ar turbine housing. Best we could get was like 430hp to the tires lol. With the twins on we can get about 460-470hp to the tires comfortably. Could go higher but they don't need help self destructing. The 15L maxxforce is SDP cat block/bottom end with International head, pistons, fuel system, and turbos. The maxxforce fuel system won't make much for hp on that platform either even though the bottom end can take it.



ISX's are like 6.0L's. Have a bad reputation for sure but with the right owners with some brains and a little bit of $ to upgrade/delete some parts they are pretty good engines.
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Correct, I have a 2250 that's 700+ with a 717102 Borg and it runs good. But with 1/2 the oil pressure of anyone else it's not surprising they come apart. And they are prone to cracked pistons with any real timing and fuel.

I wouldn't call it stupid to tune a 12L to 600hp. We've done a bunch of MX's, C13's and they run great. Cat has 700hp factory flash files for the C12. Truckdrivers can destroy stuff with a 290hp Cummins while there are plenty of 1000hp 15L trucks running around with zero issues. If a guy comes to me and says "make it run" it's not my job to babysit them. I just load the gun and cock the hammer. If you pull the trigger it's your problem.
 
97rada I agree with faulkner 100%. I hope you do not take any of that personal.

J faulkner is on par with the engines IMO. I have to say we agree on everything. Except the MX13. We have little experience with modified or deleted ones though so that may be why.

ISX is a flaming pile of chit. You can put lipstick on a pig and spend piles of cash trying to make it pretty but at the end of the day you shouldn't have to spend piles of money on something just to keep it on the road whether that is "bulletproofing" something or in the shop when it breaks. When I say the ISX has bankrupted people I am not exaggerating. It has quite literally bankrupted people. I wouldn't touch one with 500k+ on it no matter the price. It isn't the emissions that suck the most. They are the most annoying part of an ISX but the hard parts are what kill guys. At 400k miles they start to have a few problems, the emissions start to really go on the fritz, they spend a pile of money to get back on the road and then a couple years later they have been in an out of the shop so many times they cannot afford to off the truck. Then one day their cam bearing take a chit or it throws a rod. Suddenly their $20k truck is an $80k truck with a rod on the ground given all of the shop bills they accrue over the years. We deal with these guys daily.

MX13 is a piece of trash in stock form. No idea what they can do deleted or tuned. Same holset trash turbo found on the ISX. 200k miles turbos at best with a price tag of $5000 + actuator from most Paccar dealers.

Detroit 14L are a decent engine with some inexpensive tweaks but they are at least manageable in stock form. The gta45 turbo is a bit on the squirrely side but they aren't quite as bad as the holset VGT units. Obviously a tune and a borg replacement and these engines are decent. The newest detroit stuff is laughable at best. Comparable to a maxxforce in dependability. Really.

Maxxforce I cannot even believe people can keep on the road anymore. We generally will not sell parts for these. They have been more of a problem child than they are worth. "Hey so I bought a valve cover gasket from you and now I have rods laying on I65. Think maybe the gasket was a bad one?"

CAT. Leave them alone and they are manageable. Everybody wants to blame the compound turbos but we all know they are morons. At 600k miles you will likely need turbos, yes. Put stock ones back on with new bellows and gaskets and move on. If you feel the need to modify then know what you are getting into. High compression acert stuff isn't likely to be happy with a big fat tune and some 20% overs in it pulling it down to 1000rpm in the hills driving it like a C model. A single turbo won't fix it.
 
zfaylor said:
97rada I agree with faulkner 100%. I hope you do not take any of that personal.

J faulkner is on par with the engines IMO. I have to say we agree on everything. Except the MX13. We have little experience with modified or deleted ones though so that may be why.

ISX is a flaming pile of chit. You can put lipstick on a pig and spend piles of cash trying to make it pretty but at the end of the day you shouldn't have to spend piles of money on something just to keep it on the road whether that is "bulletproofing" something or in the shop when it breaks. When I say the ISX has bankrupted people I am not exaggerating. It has quite literally bankrupted people. I wouldn't touch one with 500k+ on it no matter the price. It isn't the emissions that suck the most. They are the most annoying part of an ISX but the hard parts are what kill guys. At 400k miles they start to have a few problems, the emissions start to really go on the fritz, they spend a pile of money to get back on the road and then a couple years later they have been in an out of the shop so many times they cannot afford to off the truck. Then one day their cam bearing take a chit or it throws a rod. Suddenly their $20k truck is an $80k truck with a rod on the ground given all of the shop bills they accrue over the years. We deal with these guys daily.

MX13 is a piece of trash in stock form. No idea what they can do deleted or tuned. Same holset trash turbo found on the ISX. 200k miles turbos at best with a price tag of $5000 + actuator from most Paccar dealers.

Detroit 14L are a decent engine with some inexpensive tweaks but they are at least manageable in stock form. The gta45 turbo is a bit on the squirrely side but they aren't quite as bad as the holset VGT units. Obviously a tune and a borg replacement and these engines are decent. The newest detroit stuff is laughable at best. Comparable to a maxxforce in dependability. Really.

Maxxforce I cannot even believe people can keep on the road anymore. We generally will not sell parts for these. They have been more of a problem child than they are worth. "Hey so I bought a valve cover gasket from you and now I have rods laying on I65. Think maybe the gasket was a bad one?"

CAT. Leave them alone and they are manageable. Everybody wants to blame the compound turbos but we all know they are morons. At 600k miles you will likely need turbos, yes. Put stock ones back on with new bellows and gaskets and move on. If you feel the need to modify then know what you are getting into. High compression acert stuff isn't likely to be happy with a big fat tune and some 20% overs in it pulling it down to 1000rpm in the hills driving it like a C model. A single turbo won't fix it.
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What turbos are on the Maxxforce? They look like a nice set of Borg compounds but without a warrant and a search party you can't even see the manifold to see what foot the manifold turbo has.
 
jfaulkner said:
What turbos are on the Maxxforce? They look like a nice set of Borg compounds but without a warrant and a search party you can't even see the manifold to see what foot the manifold turbo has.
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They are 6.4 powerstroke turbos in a nutshell. No joke. Borg Warner units. Oddball 3 bolt triangle flange for the high pressure. They are absolutely ridiculous setups for an engine of the size. I would feel more comfortable with an HX35 on it than the B2 high pressure they use. The exhaust housing is almost non existent it is so small and the wheels are dam near HX35 in terms of size. The "low pressure" is a 64mm inducer IIRC. I have a set of wheels cleaned up and would have to go look at them to confirm.

If somebody were to put a decent sized turbo(s) on it then they may get them to live a bit longer. I do not see how they can efficiently work at all even at an idle.
 
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jfaulkner said:
If I have a truck that needs a head why would I take it to Cummins to get the same head installed at $150 per hour when an independent shop will install the same head for $60hr? Parts are the same and parts warranty is the same.

There's a guy here that has built several gliders for his company. Insists he's getting a deal having Ohio Cat overhaul his motors. Paid $39,000 for a 6NZ but got a 4yr warranty. Now I'm not the best at math but he paid twice what it would have cost for a small shop to build it using the same parts doing the exact same work. There is no way that will ever pay back. That is a TON of warranty claims to ever break even.

Just looking back at the trucks I currently own (5) in the last 2yrs I've replaced a few idler pulleys, 1 carrier bearing and 2 rocker arms. I'm trying to figure out how I could ever justify paying twice for an engine overhaul to get a warranty from Cat/Cummins.
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Don't you have to be a "certified" mechanic to get the parts warranty?
 
jfaulkner said:
If a guy comes to me and says "make it run" it's not my job to babysit them. I just load the gun and cock the hammer. If you pull the trigger it's your problem.
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I think this gets left out or forgotten about in all of these discussions...
 
Hahaha you so good! Low mile failure, oil from compressor side.

I think I have a top cartridge also? But no TH

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biggy238 said:
Hahaha you so good! Low mile failure, oil from compressor side.

I think I have a top cartridge also? But no TH

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I have never seen a maxxforce turbocharger that isn't covered in oil. I feel bad for the techs that have to deal with those engines. Man. I have never had to do any physical work on one but they look like a bastard and I have heard they are a real bastard to diagnose.
 
Our parts warranty is 1yr no matter how it got put on.

Overhaul pricing depends on buying power of the dealership and buying power of the customer.

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