Building a Performance Marine Engines

DIESEL_POWER said:
I know exactly what your talking about, cast iron marine engines have been in opperation for a few years...no issue.

Aluminum block in the same platform is NO Issue. ...
Click to expand...

It is good there is additional validation of the Aluminum block for a demand application, even as tangential as your example is to my needs.

We also agree that anything DM has no place in this discussion, yes?

I am curious ... have you LOOKED at a 'marine' DM?

GM Duramax Power - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

Why in God's name would ANYBODY want to take something with that collection of gizmos, wheelies, belts, string, plastic and obvious fall-offs out of the sight of land?

Facially, that is not only ludicrous, it is an absolute race-loser AND life-threatening. You are not only ignorant, your inexperience and naivete is dangerous and a waste of time to read anything of yours.

I would much rather use my last 1,000# capacity on fuel, rather than spares and tools - not to mention finding a place for all of them b/c the DM is 'lighter.' Well, yes, tinfoil, plastic, vee-belts, paint and paper-maché IS lighter.

jeeze-o-peete
 
Last edited:
goatskin said:
OK, Kyle, you're up. Tell me abt freeze plugs, and thanks for thinking abt this at your BBQ.
Click to expand...

To keep from blowing plugs you got a few options, tapping the holes and threading in plugs that will not pop out being the first. Companys like Dr. P used make a kit. It looked like this.

HeadPlugSaleSheet.jpg


The other choice is to run a coolant bypass and relieve that pressure.(The more common option as it is easier to do with the motor in the truck) Here's a great example from Fleece, along with their explanation.

Fleece Coolant Bypass Kit


"The Cummins engine cooling system was designed to adequately cool a 300-350hp engine. When horsepower is increased there is also an increased demand on the cooling system. The rear cylinders suffer from a lack of coolant flow, and therefore, experience the highest coolant temperatures. This can cause excessive pressure to build in the system, especially the rear of the block and possibly blow out freeze plugs externally, or the smaller diameter plugs under the valve cover, leading to a failure."


Sorry, but I'm short on time again. I was just informed somebody tore up one of my excavators so I've gotta run for a little bit! I'll come back to this! (It's FAR more in depth that this)
 
Last edited:
I am definately liking this thread..

A couple of things....

Marine use is in no way related to drag racing....not in the least.

The power requirements are not even in the same league...Marine use will KILL a drag motor...the duty is too high i.e running at 100% power for hours on end.

I do not think a small displacement engine (under 8 litres) will survive very long while producing 800 hp continuous. Even with an unlimited cooling supply. Also, if you want instant torque, then a turbo is not an option...Corky Bell said it best..."if you have no lag, you have no turbo". I would look ar supercharging...since it is a marine application, the heat is easier to remove.

Thinking back to my days running a propultion plant...800 HP is small...but, the cooling requirements are not...especially when in a confined space of a small boat like this...but still easier than a land based power plant.



When we were "maneuvering", we had a small 300HP circulation water pump to supply cooling water..it allowed all bells from back full to Flank...however, above 1/3 it was not needed as the scoop would supply enough water. Just make sure your heat exchanger tubes are big enough to handle the occational jellyfish...or at least have a rotating inlet strainer...jellyfish will shut you down in a heartbeat!!! Been there, done that...
 
goatskin said:
It is good there is additional validation of the Aluminum block for a demand application, even as tangential as your example is to my needs.

We also agree that anything DM has no place in this discussion, yes?

I am curious ... have you LOOKED at a 'marine' DM?

GM Duramax Power - Professional BoatBuilder Magazine

Why in God's name would ANYBODY want to take something with that collection of gizmos, wheelies, belts, string, plastic and obvious fall-offs out of the sight of land?

Facially, that is not only ludicrous, it is an absolute race-loser AND life-threatening. You are not only ignorant, your inexperience and naivete is dangerous and a waste of time to read anything of yours.

I would much rather use my last 1,000# capacity on fuel, rather than spares and tools - not to mention finding a place for all of them b/c the DM is 'lighter.' Well, yes, tinfoil, plastic, vee-belts, paint and paper-maché IS lighter.

jeeze-o-peete
Click to expand...

Now that is funny!!!

IMHO, Marine Racing is similar to Desert Racing in a couple areas...

1. Everything has to be as reliable as a Claw Hammer
2. The Ocean is a Desert...no drinkable water anywhere
3. You have to carry all your spare gear...because your chase vehicle may not be able to help you...let alone find you
4. Both take lots of Power...and that power needs to be available for use all the time...and used in harsh enviromnents where it is difficult to keep the powerplants cool
5. People die and there is no assistance from any local emergency services to even try and help
6. If you are dead in the water...you are dead....if you are out of fuel or out of water in the desert...you are dead
 
goatskin said:
Why in God's name would ANYBODY want to take something with that collection of gizmos, wheelies, belts, string, plastic and obvious fall-offs out of the sight of land?

Facially, that is not only ludicrous, it is an absolute race-loser AND life-threatening. You are not only ignorant, your inexperience and naivete is dangerous and a waste of time to read anything of yours.

I would much rather use my last 1,000# capacity on fuel, rather than spares and tools - not to mention finding a place for all of them b/c the DM is 'lighter.' Well, yes, tinfoil, plastic, vee-belts, paint and paper-maché IS lighter.

jeeze-o-peete
Click to expand...

:hehe: I'm really starting to like this guy.


Bob, check out this thread. I knew there was one here that covered the topic I just had to find it! Freeze plug solutions? What say you???? - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together
 
Diesel Freak said:
I am definately liking this thread..
Click to expand...

My marine background is in sportfishers, chasing marlin. A couple of years ago, I got a wild hair to build a boat I could take to France for froglegs and flan or to Belgium for waffles and sprouts ... Spain for sardines and sangria ...

The the Venture Cup popped up. The requirements of the boat are the same, even if the upholstery is not.

Hmmm ... It has been a fun and frustrating journey and is not over yet, but it is a lot closer than it started out to be.

A couple of things....

Marine use is in no way related to drag racing....not in the least.
Click to expand...

ya'think? I was wrong to use 'chalk' and 'cheese' to compare them ... as both start with a 'C'. duh.

I do not think a small displacement engine (under 8 litres) will survive very long while producing 800 hp continuous. Even with an unlimited cooling supply.
Click to expand...

Here are where balanced choices come in. Yeah, you're right, of course: there is nothing a 6L can do that an 8L can't do better, but when you lower TBO demands, a world of lighter-weight, more fuel-efficient options are visible.

Design it with plenty of cool water, air, oil and fuel; build it with the best parts to it's 'natural' range (which in a Cummins B, 12V w/o all the consumer crap) is 750-800-1000-ish hp with PLANNED sub-system pre-death replacements of 'maintenance' items:
- injectors at 100hrs
- turbos at 500
- head at 1000
- complete at 2000

It's not rocket surgery, but it does require some planning and not fainting when you write cheques.

Also, if you want instant torque, then a turbo is not an option...Corky Bell said it best..."if you have no lag, you have no turbo". I would look ar supercharging...since it is a marine application, the heat is easier to remove.
Click to expand...

point taken. I'll have HP, but no rpm reserve, and I HAVE-to-HAVE the torque curve pushed to the right, some, but when I am airborne for a second, the turbos can deliver Richter Scale numbers, and bad things WILL happen when we come back into solid water.

It's just another planning and design factor.

Thinking back to my days running a propultion plant...800 HP is small...but, the cooling requirements are not...especially when in a confined space of a small boat like this... Just make sure your heat exchanger tubes are big enough to handle the occational jellyfish...or at least have a rotating inlet strainer...jellyfish will shut you down in a heartbeat!!! Been there, done that...
Click to expand...

I am familiar with the effects of jellyfish, yus, and kelp, and sargassum, and plastic bags. And even a baby shark.

Finding enough good, clean cold seawater is a problem that responds to planning, pretty easily ... and spending #100 & finding an unused cubic foot.

I will probably have two rudders, each with a pickup at the bottom, flowing into their own competition sea-strainers, then into (the cubic-foot) overflow box, where pumps will feed the exchangers. It's a belt-and-suspenders approach, as either supply is far in excess of total demand - BUT, there will also be no moment when a jellyfish overheats an engine, which is pretty disastrous to, especially, hi-HP gas engines.

In some circles, that is known as "Bad Luck." In others, it is known as a forseeable, avoidable consequence of poor planning.
 
so being the inquisitive type I am. the Cummins Power Plants are rated with 128K BTU/gal fuel....


can you get 140K Btu Fuel consistemtly???

if so, the 8.3 cummins gets bumped to 650 HP (in theory)...


edited for units..
 
Last edited:
goatskin said:
My marine background is in sportfishers, chasing marlin. A couple of years ago, I got a wild hair to build a boat I could take to France for froglegs and flan or to Belgium for waffles and sprouts ... Spain for sardines and sangria ...

The the Venture Cup popped up. The requirements of the boat are the same, even if the upholstery is not.

Hmmm ... It has been a fun and frustrating journey and is not over yet, but it is a lot closer than it started out to be.



ya'think? I was wrong to use 'chalk' and 'cheese' to compare them ... as both start with a 'C'. duh.



Here are where balanced choices come in. Yeah, you're right, of course: there is nothing a 6L can do that an 8L can't do better, but when you lower TBO demands, a world of lighter-weight, more fuel-efficient options are visible.

Design it with plenty of cool water, air, oil and fuel; build it with the best parts to it's 'natural' range (which in a Cummins B, 12V w/o all the consumer crap) is 750-800-1000-ish hp with PLANNED sub-system pre-death replacements of 'maintenance' items:
- injectors at 100hrs
- turbos at 500
- head at 1000
- complete at 2000

It's not rocket surgery, but it does require some planning and not fainting when you write cheques.



point taken. I'll have HP, but no rpm reserve, and I HAVE-to-HAVE the torque curve pushed to the right, some, but when I am airborne for a second, the turbos can deliver Richter Scale numbers, and bad things WILL happen when we come back into solid water.

It's just another planning and design factor.



I am familiar with the effects of jellyfish, yus, and kelp, and sargassum, and plastic bags. And even a baby shark.

Finding enough good, clean cold seawater is a problem that responds to planning, pretty easily ... and spending #100 & finding an unused cubic foot.

I will probably have two rudders, each with a pickup at the bottom, flowing into their own competition sea-strainers, then into (the cubic-foot) overflow box, where pumps will feed the exchangers. It's a belt-and-suspenders approach, as either supply is far in excess of total demand - BUT, there will also be no moment when a jellyfish overheats an engine, which is pretty disastrous to, especially, hi-HP gas engines.

In some circles, that is known as "Bad Luck." In others, it is known as a forseeable, avoidable consequence of poor planning.
Click to expand...

Hottest sea water I have dealt with was ~97F...and that was 33 feet below the surface...hard to keep things cool...even harder to hit a Flank bell without getting too hot...


What are your design worst case cooling conditions??
 
StainlessRRA said:
:hehe: I'm really starting to like this guy.
Click to expand...

Unlike the real gearheads, who get all tingly when they get to crawl around in a hot, cramped engine room, trying to keep their various parts away from glowingly incandescent manifolds while they try to find the left-handed 3.5mm wrench needed to remove a corroded bolt which holds a decorative plate that interferes with replacing a 36' long belt that has to be snaked a specific way (and where is that gd maint manual, btw) ...

faugh!

see: 'Bad Luck', above


Bob, check out this thread. I knew there was one here that covered the topic I just had to find it! Freeze plug solutions? What say you???? - Competition Diesel.Com - Bringing The BEST Together
Click to expand...

ta dah!

I ♥ smart people with good memories.
 
What an awesome thread, very interesting...

Watching the surface drive video, my first thought was how hard those things must get loaded when they leave the water then crash back down and are underwater completely. Your comment confirmed my thinking...

goatskin said:
and I HAVE-to-HAVE the torque curve pushed to the right, some, but when I am airborne for a second, the turbos can deliver Richter Scale numbers, and bad things WILL happen when we come back into solid water.

It's just another planning and design factor.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a fun project, just glad I'm not the one writing out the checks. LOL
 
Diesel Freak said:
while this is not quite what you are looking for, it is close. with ~600 hp, adding an additional 200 would be much easier than building a 800 HP "B" series. It does weigh a bit tho
+
B Series is rated at 480ish...not enough there to make 800hp continuous

6.7 @ 550hp...but still too small IMHO

+ +
Click to expand...

I like how Zach Hamilton phrases it: "All of our products are tools to remedy an issue for a particular application."

The Cummins B 'issue' that gets in the way of it being a real, serious, cast-iron monster is the plenum head (and all the de-tuning for EPA and low-demand long-life).

Once you address those 'issues' you can start tweaking on various things to add 10hp here, 13 there, etc.

A straight non p&p Hamilton 12V adds 150 to the 570hp base, then finding another 200 is a piece of cake, and totally normal and reliable.

Good comparison, btw, to desert racing.
 
Last edited:
Cool story, brah....

10:1 this monstrosity will never get built and this thread is 100% M-M....

Next thread...."I'm going to fly to the moon, need help, will ONLY use Cummins B-series".
 
Diesel Freak said:
so being the inquisitive type I am. the Cummins Power Plants are rated with 128K BTU/gal fuel....

can you get 140K Btu Fuel consistemtly???

if so, the 8.3 cummins gets bumped to 650 HP (in theory)...
Click to expand...

Yeah, Jet-A, plus Cetane, plus chainsaw oil impersonates synthetic diesel pretty good, and it is always real clean, wherever you get it.

It's not much issue switching between 129 & 140. Steel pistons, replace injectors regularly, hard valve seats.

The Bosch pump is a LOT pickier abt fuel that a p7100.
 
Diesel Freak said:
Hottest sea water I have dealt with was ~97F...and that was 33 feet below the surface...hard to keep things cool...even harder to hit a Flank bell without getting too hot...

What are your design worst case cooling conditions??
Click to expand...

Other than KW-Cancun, Miami-Bimini, etc, inshore in the Med, etc. 72º-ish, design is for 80º.
 
nwpadmax said:
Cool story, brah....

10:1 this monstrosity will never get built and this thread is 100% M-M....

Next thread...."I'm going to fly to the moon, need help, will ONLY use Cummins B-series".
Click to expand...

Yep, it may not happen, but it is sure fun thinking and dreaming and planning, tho, ain't it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top