HE351VE on a 12 valve

LReiff said:
Hey! I don't know when all you guys started toying with VGTs but y'all are late to the scene...me and a friend pulled an all-nighter about 4 years ago and installed a HE431V on his '98 12 valve and it's been on ever since and works well...so now I'm just gonna give up! :bow: Good luck guys...keep toying around maybe someone will soon build a controller! :Cheer:
Click to expand...

Did you share with the class though? Guess I still wasn't on here 4 years ago though... Heck I've only owned the truck for 3 :doh:

Oh and my 451 will close down enough for EB... I found that out the hard way when I took my truck for it's first test run. Wouldn't accelerate very good but it slowed down pretty darn good. BTW did your 431 have a billet wheel in it that looked to be extended tip???

Jcummins said:
Good to see someone else doing this. I have just recently put one of these turbo's on my 03 CR Dodge using a stock waste gate actuator to open and close the collar.(I say collar, because it is a VGT, not a VVT, the vains don't move, the geometry does).

Anyways, I have had pretty good luck with my setup and will gladly help out anwering any questions, but will throw out a few things I have found:

First off, you don't want to run things off drive pressure. That would kill your spool up. The boost reference lets it stay almost closed were it idles with 1-2psi of, about 12psi of back pressure. You have to have some drive pressure to get quick spool up, hence the whole purpose of this turbo. As boost builds, the collar opens and back pressure drops to around 1:1, depending on how touchy your actuator is set up.

Second, the lever must have some sort of notch that has to be past to go into exhaust brake mode. No matter how I set up the actuator, it would never fully close. It seems to need just a little more, like an 1/8" click to get it to go all the way back. This actually works out well, because you don't want it to shut all the way every time you let off the pedal. I am going to rough it for now and just rig up a manual cable to click it into exhaust brake mode when needed. Lets face it, if you couldn't get the exhaust brake to work it would defeat half the purpose.

And lastly. I have my actuator opening at about 4psi. Boost is literally instant. I can easily hit 17psi or more just cruising around town in Tow/Haul mode. Egts are great, cool down isn't bad, but will improve greatly when I get the coolant plumbed in. The sound out the exhaust is like nothing else, especially when the exhaust brake is activated. And at idle, the exhaust brake keeps egts over 500*, which makes for fast warm ups in the winter.

All I have for now.
Click to expand...

I know that my waste gate actuator doesn't start to move until about 10-12psi of boost and it has enough spring to it that it will pull my 451 into EB mode. I'm thinking that with something holding it partly open it will increase the spring load hence increasing the opening pressure (on the stock turbos they open at 19.3psi).

So I think a pull-type solenoid, some sort of adjustable arm and a dump valve (to dump the drive pressure) and the EB mode would work. That and I think it would run on drive pressure if the opening pressure was set somewhere around 20psi... Keeping in mind the pressure to open further increases as it opens and I extended the arm on my turbo so it doesn't open as fast either :Cheer: Oh and the needle valve idea works too, I have one inline on mine as is running on boost to delay the action of the housing opening AND closing.
 
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Cummins Driver said:
I was thinking a shutoff solenoid off of a 12 valve might work. The heat could be an issue, and possibly the vibration like you said.

Here is a drawing i made up. I couldnt remember exactly what the 351VE looked like with the electronics closed, and this is of course just a rough drawing with no brakets or anything shown, but I think something like this would work.

Im putting a HE351cw on mine, but i still think its pretty cool to mess with the VE chargers.

Eric
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GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!! Thats the exact thought i had. As for the head. My brackets are all going to be aluminum and everything will be mounted to it with brass stand offs. Got to keep it cool.:cheer:
 
Blacksky, your 451 compressor is different than a 431 and i do not know if the 431 will close down far enough to work as an EB.
 
My actuator is set up to open at around 3-4psi, so it doesn't seat all the way back down to EB mode when I let of the pedal. It will go that far with just a slight touch, though, that's why I think there must be some sort of notch internally that keeps it from going that far.

Back pressure at an idle, with the EB on is around 15psi. Out of EB mode it is around 5psi. When things get to maybe 15psi of boost, it is at a 1:1 ratio, because the collar is opening up about 40%. From there it seems to maintane the 1:1 ratio fairly close.

I would like to do something to hold it wide open when running out on the highway, for better mpg. And also something to shut it down to EB mode when needed. Electronics would be nice, but there is alot of heat down there so can't say they would last very long. Fact is, with an electronic switch, you'll still have to activate it, so having a manual cable isn't that much different.

I also made a nice adapter out of 4.25" steal, that alows me to bolt my stock cast elbow on the exhuast to the back of the turbo. It is just .75" wide and has a 4" V-band for the turbo, and 4.25" V-band for the elbow. Also found a plug next to the turbo on the side of the block that enters the water jacket. This will work nice for the out going coolant.
 
YouTube - drive pressure gauge

jcummins, you're the only one i know of who's done it on a 3rd gen. i tried and failed with a 2nd gen exhaust manifold on my early 04, but have since got some new pieces to make the manifold-to-he351ve work. one of the issues i saw in the video above was the drive pressure at idle with the veins closed. i am or was worried before your last post about drive pressure getting out of control until the factory wastegate actuator from my he341 opens up the veins. so that's not an issue?


i'm planning on using the factory wastegate actuator and a spring to pull the veins back..or get a smaller psi one if needed.

issues i'm worried about:
-drive pressure as said above
-spring overcoming drive pressure when letting off the throttle causing a sort of exhaust brake (when it's not really wanted).
 
sooter said:
YouTube - drive pressure gauge

jcummins, you're the only one i know of who's done it on a 3rd gen. i tried and failed with a 2nd gen exhaust manifold on my early 04, but have since got some new pieces to make the manifold-to-he351ve work. one of the issues i saw in the video above was the drive pressure at idle with the veins closed. i am or was worried before your last post about drive pressure getting out of control until the factory wastegate actuator from my he341 opens up the veins. so that's not an issue?


i'm planning on using the factory wastegate actuator and a spring to pull the veins back..or get a smaller psi one if needed.

issues i'm worried about:
-drive pressure as said above
-spring overcoming drive pressure when letting off the throttle causing a sort of exhaust brake (when it's not really wanted).
Click to expand...


Drive pressure was my MAIN concern, but you just don't know till ya try it. The thing is, even though the DP is high at an idle, or with the EB on, think about it this way:
How much BP do you think a Pacbrake or simular EB makes, alot, that's how they work.
Also, while BP is high when starting out, it levels off and becomes 1:1 or less with boost close to 15psi. So basicly, when the collar starts to open, BP stays the same(15psi) or slightly more, then it starts to rise with boost when they meet up. Really it's all in how the actuator is set up.

All I did was use my wastegate actuator of the stock turbo. Made a bracket to hold it and cover the water ports. Welded a piece on the lever of the turbo, but made sure to extend it the other direction some to attach a spring.
Went threw alot of springs trying to find the right one to counter the actuator properly. Different spring rates, lengths and stiffness. Have about 100 springs sitting on the bench, half of those are cut up or stretched.
Made my own compressed air regulator gizmo that hooked to the compressor, then to the actuator. Just kept trying springs and turning the regulator to about 4psi until things went like they should.
Hardest part was getting the actuator to go back, yet still not fight agianst everything else or go into EB mode. Eventually used another small piece of metal and a stiff spring that pulls it back, but is slack before going into EB mode.

By far not done with this project. Still have a long way to go before I can call it good, but it's working.

Anyone out there know off hand what the heck the coolant ports are on this thing. I really want to get that hooked up, but can't seem to find anything to thread in.
 
aborgardt said:
GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!! Thats the exact thought i had. As for the head. My brackets are all going to be aluminum and everything will be mounted to it with brass stand offs. Got to keep it cool.:cheer:
Click to expand...

I think it would work fine. If you can keep the solenoid cool enough(and with a heat shield it shouldnt be a problem), then I think that is the best way to do it. Messing with drive pressure and all of that sounds like a mess to me.

Eric
 
Jcummins said:
Drive pressure was my MAIN concern, but you just don't know till ya try it. The thing is, even though the DP is high at an idle, or with the EB on, think about it this way:
How much BP do you think a Pacbrake or simular EB makes, alot, that's how they work.
Also, while BP is high when starting out, it levels off and becomes 1:1 or less with boost close to 15psi. So basicly, when the collar starts to open, BP stays the same(15psi) or slightly more, then it starts to rise with boost when they meet up. Really it's all in how the actuator is set up.

All I did was use my wastegate actuator of the stock turbo. Made a bracket to hold it and cover the water ports. Welded a piece on the lever of the turbo, but made sure to extend it the other direction some to attach a spring.
Went threw alot of springs trying to find the right one to counter the actuator properly. Different spring rates, lengths and stiffness. Have about 100 springs sitting on the bench, half of those are cut up or stretched.
Made my own compressed air regulator gizmo that hooked to the compressor, then to the actuator. Just kept trying springs and turning the regulator to about 4psi until things went like they should.
Hardest part was getting the actuator to go back, yet still not fight agianst everything else or go into EB mode. Eventually used another small piece of metal and a stiff spring that pulls it back, but is slack before going into EB mode.

By far not done with this project. Still have a long way to go before I can call it good, but it's working.

Anyone out there know off hand what the heck the coolant ports are on this thing. I really want to get that hooked up, but can't seem to find anything to thread in.
Click to expand...



what i was/am hoping for is one spring to pull it back and the stock he341 wastegate actuator to open it. but that causes in issue around 10-20psi just cruising around though. the coolant ports are just to cool the factory electric solenoid box but obviously we take those off.

i've been looking it over for hours yesterday and today. i should be back on it tomorrow and friday. the issue i'm having is turbo location since i have to be careful of the hood, a/c lines, battery, etc.:bang gotta figure out where everything will work so i can then build the adapter from manifold to turbo. i'm also designing it so i can hang an s400, ht3b, or ht60 on it later.
 
Cummins Driver said:
I think it would work fine. If you can keep the solenoid cool enough(and with a heat shield it shouldnt be a problem), then I think that is the best way to do it. Messing with drive pressure and all of that sounds like a mess to me.

Eric
Click to expand...

I am now tossing around the idea of using a double acting cylinder with springs to hold it at rest just outside of EB. I eventually am wanting to put bags on the rear of the truck, so i was thinking about doing my on board air now to use to engage the EB. Thats how PAC does it. I dont know. Im trying to do it on a very limited budget. we will see what happens.

I was going to get a 6.7 manifold so i wouldnt have to fab anything up, but now im hearing that they dont match the third gen 5.9. Until that is confirmed im on hold.
 
Jcummins said:
Anyone out there know off hand what the heck the coolant ports are on this thing. I really want to get that hooked up, but can't seem to find anything to thread in.
Click to expand...

Talk to Snedge, he can look all that stuff up for you. My 451 uses two banjo style fittings, though one has an adapter of sorts between it and the turbo. Almost looks like the adapter is an O-ring fitting on one end and
accepts the banjo on the other.
 
Jcummins said:
Back pressure at an idle, with the EB on is around 15psi. Out of EB mode it is around 5psi. When things get to maybe 15psi of boost, it is at a 1:1 ratio, because the collar is opening up about 40%. From there it seems to maintane the 1:1 ratio fairly close.
Click to expand...

With watching the video on You Tube and this information, I have decided to just hook up the turbo as is (single acting pneumatic cylinder, extended with boost psi.) 15psi of working back pressure is not nearly enough to act as an effective exhaust brake. Maybe if someone has the guff to weld or plug all those holes on the slider and see what kind of pressure it produces (hopefully ~40psi!)

:st:
 
CSM diesel said:
With watching the video on You Tube and this information, I have decided to just hook up the turbo as is (single acting pneumatic cylinder, extended with boost psi.) 15psi of working back pressure is not nearly enough to act as an effective exhaust brake. Maybe if someone has the guff to weld or plug all those holes on the slider and see what kind of pressure it produces (hopefully ~40psi!)

:st:
Click to expand...

15psi was at idle in park. dont you think it will be much higher when moving?

Garrett
 
SSpeeDEMONSS said:
15psi was at idle in park. dont you think it will be much higher when moving?

Garrett
Click to expand...

I assume with some revs it will work much much better...

I just want to get the stupid thing on the truck and drive it!

I'll keep working on the control system, just with it on the truck.

:ft:
 
CSM diesel said:
I assume with some revs it will work much much better...

I just want to get the stupid thing on the truck and drive it!

I'll keep working on the control system, just with it on the truck.

:ft:
Click to expand...

I have been thinking the same thing. I got ants in my pants...LOL
 
i just got mine installed today. took all day. sound is great and very different from my stock he341. my truck is an early 04 with a 2nd gen exhaust manifold.

note: drive pressure will open the veins up.

i haven't built the actuator setup, but it will be more simple that i planned. once the turbo got oil in and warmed up the sliding collar freed up real nice.
 
Jcummins said:
Drive pressure was my MAIN concern, but you just don't know till ya try it. The thing is, even though the DP is high at an idle, or with the EB on, think about it this way:
How much BP do you think a Pacbrake or simular EB makes, alot, that's how they work.
Also, while BP is high when starting out, it levels off and becomes 1:1 or less with boost close to 15psi. So basicly, when the collar starts to open, BP stays the same(15psi) or slightly more, then it starts to rise with boost when they meet up. Really it's all in how the actuator is set up.

All I did was use my wastegate actuator of the stock turbo. Made a bracket to hold it and cover the water ports. Welded a piece on the lever of the turbo, but made sure to extend it the other direction some to attach a spring.
Went threw alot of springs trying to find the right one to counter the actuator properly. Different spring rates, lengths and stiffness. Have about 100 springs sitting on the bench, half of those are cut up or stretched.
Made my own compressed air regulator gizmo that hooked to the compressor, then to the actuator. Just kept trying springs and turning the regulator to about 4psi until things went like they should.
Hardest part was getting the actuator to go back, yet still not fight agianst everything else or go into EB mode. Eventually used another small piece of metal and a stiff spring that pulls it back, but is slack before going into EB mode.

By far not done with this project. Still have a long way to go before I can call it good, but it's working.

Anyone out there know off hand what the heck the coolant ports are on this thing. I really want to get that hooked up, but can't seem to find anything to thread in.
Click to expand...



after playing with this thing for a little bit i'm just going to use the factory actuator with a mild return spring. BUT i'm going to put a stop to keep it from going into EB mode.

i would like to use a solenoid to force it into EB brake mode at some point but would rather get the daily driving part of it set up first. i thought that the veins closed up (EB) would spool really quick like a psd 6.0 but really there's too much drive pressure to spool it.

on a good note i got the lower-mid range 2nd gen exhaust sound that the tiny stock turbo didn't allow. albeit very quiet
 
I can't wait to get mine working. Sitting in the garage waiting to be put on.
 
i built my actuator set up with a stock one from an he341. figured out i didn't need any springs. also added some adjustable stops so i could tune the turbo. i'm sure you guys could use a stock actuator off an hx35 and have it work fine. mine opens around 20-23 psi or so with no aftermarket adjustable boost elbow.

sounds like a 6.0 turbo sound down low with a mix of a vgt duramax and twin turbo dodge sound up high.
 
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