Is a Cam worth it.....the remix+Data

[raychem]

I am no expert by any means, but I would like to see...lets take Joe's current set-up for example...a series of cams with wildly different exhaust profiles, keeping the intake the same or as similar as possible combined with a few different turbine options. Then see if the cam makes any difference.

I would think exhaust work...be it profile shape, lift, duration, turbine(s), port work, combinations of...would prove a more interesting dialog than complete cam changes alone.

I am pretty sure that is what Joe is up against in his set-up. The turbines on the turbos are the limiting factor. Only so many changes you can do to the cam with the stock valve train. Unless he uses a large lift cam, .550 or larger with cut pistons (I know Joe has a built motor but not really sure on the valve train) to see any difference. EFI live and stand alones will negate most of those differences.

Put it to you this way, lets say someone spends 1K to purchase and install a cam. You gain 20-30 HP lets say. For a few hundred more, larger turbo or some sticks lets say and make 80 hp more. In a CR with the options we have now and whats yet to come in future updates with EFI......cam will not benefit much unless the whole valve train is done and head ported, side intake and the likes. 5K plus work of work and who knows what you will have.

On a personal note, I am just north of 700 and I can't use it all the time. A squeeze on the skinny and I am at 60 in no time on city streets. It gets to a point where I say you just can't use it! What I will never say is you can never have enough.

 

[Joesixpack]

Opie's fat shafts is what I use....not a single problem with them yet. No comparison to the stocker. I have a few pictures of them. You have to get the converter cut and hub replaced as the fat shaft is .180 larger diameter and more spines, but you know that!:hehe:

BTW, triples look so dam good and the results are amazing.

Cool, now I know where to send it if when its back together and it don't work...LOL

Talked to a few using them now and they seem to be standing up. It would be nice to make it through a season without gutting it.....LOL

 

[JasonCzerak]

JSP,

Any firm date on the triplets yet?

 

[97rada]

I am pretty sure that is what Joe is up against in his set-up. The turbines on the turbos are the limiting factor. Only so many changes you can do to the cam with the stock valve train. Unless he uses a large lift cam, .550 or larger with cut pistons (I know Joe has a built motor but not really sure on the valve train) to see any difference. EFI live and stand alones will negate most of those differences.

Put it to you this way, lets say someone spends 1K to purchase and install a cam. You gain 20-30 HP lets say. For a few hundred more, larger turbo or some sticks lets say and make 80 hp more. In a CR with the options we have now and whats yet to come in future updates with EFI......cam will not benefit much unless the whole valve train is done and head ported, side intake and the likes. 5K plus work of work and who knows what you will have.

On a personal note, I am just north of 700 and I can't use it all the time. A squeeze on the skinny and I am at 60 in no time on city streets. It gets to a point where I say you just can't use it! What I will never say is you can never have enough.

Took the words right out of my mouth. There is a limiting factor. More air is Still more air, there is no way around that. A cam will add performance when matched with the correct components.

 

[SHughes]

I am pretty sure that is what Joe is up against in his set-up. The turbines on the turbos are the limiting factor. Only so many changes you can do to the cam with the stock valve train. Unless he uses a large lift cam, .550 or larger with cut pistons (I know Joe has a built motor but not really sure on the valve train) to see any difference. EFI live and stand alones will negate most of those differences.

Put it to you this way, lets say someone spends 1K to purchase and install a cam. You gain 20-30 HP lets say. For a few hundred more, larger turbo or some sticks lets say and make 80 hp more. In a CR with the options we have now and whats yet to come in future updates with EFI......cam will not benefit much unless the whole valve train is done and head ported, side intake and the likes. 5K plus work of work and who knows what you will have.

On a personal note, I am just north of 700 and I can't use it all the time. A squeeze on the skinny and I am at 60 in no time on city streets. It gets to a point where I say you just can't use it! What I will never say is you can never have enough.

Agreed!! I've said before that if I had a CR, EFIlive or some other standalone would be my second upgrade...transmission being the first. Seems silly at this point to start anywhere else.

One thing I meant to say was that cams seem great in the mechanical injection engine. Joe, to my knowledge, is the only one who has doen this testing thus far with a standalone maxed out. So maybe guys like Joe could benifit from a more custom camshaft profile/grind than those f us with p-pumps (like myself).

I'm basically saying that a p-pumped truck and a CR truck with a well tuned standalone clearly won't require the same cam design.

I'm back down to the 700 HP level as well, and you're absolutely right, you can't use it all on the street. I'm backing it down to 500ish this summer for daily driving and turning it back up with parts swaps for dyno/racing events.

 

[raychem]

Cool, now I know where to send it if when its back together and it don't work...LOL

Talked to a few using them now and they seem to be standing up. It would be nice to make it through a season without gutting it.....LOL

It is short of amazing to some degree what these transmission are holding. Think about the engineers that designed this stuff back in the 60's and 70's. If we tell them we can hold 2K ft lbs of torque they would laugh at us. Most of these things on any 500 hp truck will hold 1100-1200 ft lbs with no problem.

When you think about it, the fat shafts are a bit more affordable now and only a few hundred more on a new tranny.

 

[Joesixpack]

JSP,

Any firm date on the triplets yet?

The fabricator has been moving to a larger shop so work has been pretty slow. Going to light a fire next week as april is the end of my play time.

I am pretty sure that is what Joe is up against in his set-up. The turbines on the turbos are the limiting factor. Only so many changes you can do to the cam with the stock valve train. Unless he uses a large lift cam, .550 or larger with cut pistons (I know Joe has a built motor but not really sure on the valve train) to see any difference. EFI live and stand alones will negate most of those differences.

Put it to you this way, lets say someone spends 1K to purchase and install a cam. You gain 20-30 HP lets say. For a few hundred more, larger turbo or some sticks lets say and make 80 hp more. In a CR with the options we have now and whats yet to come in future updates with EFI......cam will not benefit much unless the whole valve train is done and head ported, side intake and the likes. 5K plus work of work and who knows what you will have.

On a personal note, I am just north of 700 and I can't use it all the time. A squeeze on the skinny and I am at 60 in no time on city streets. It gets to a point where I say you just can't use it! What I will never say is you can never have enough.

I agree, as to max power my chargers are capped.

HOWEVER on spool.....there was NOTHING...zero....zilch....NADA! (swipe that from the sales pitch)

AND I can show no gain in power anywhere on the curve. Even when the chargers are in their sweet spot its just not there!

Head is already ported about as much as you would want and along with a valve job and throat angle that my machinist said would be the "chit"....LOL Side entrance manifold.


1k on the street is silly, but does not take away from the one basic undeniable fact.....there is no such thing as too much HP!.....:hehe:

 

[holsky]

This thread is all sorts of amazing! And I've gained a lot of knowledge on all of this.

Thanks Joe for taking the time and effort to do this and showing us your findings!!

 

[Smokem]

HOWEVER on spool.....there was NOTHING...zero....zilch....NADA! (swipe that from the sales pitch)

AND I can show no gain in power anywhere on the curve. Even when the chargers are in their sweet spot its just not there!

This is simple to explain;

Your cylinder head has not been outlawed by a rule that has been in writing for 8yrs, therefore it is just not appropriate for the cam.

Also you are not seeing a power gain anywhere in the curve because you do not have the same brand injectors, I would assume someone such as yourself would know this.

Proof holds little weight against marketing, the truth is so boring.

 

[Big Swole]

lol


That was epic Smokem posting right there!

 

[RonA]

So the common rail requirements are different than the p-pump requirements, or has it been established that those who have posted dyno sheets showing a gain switching from one cam to another are either wrong or have doctored the numbers?

 

[Joesixpack]

So the common rail requirements are different than the p-pump requirements, or has it been established that those who have posted dyno sheets showing a gain switching from one cam to another are either wrong or have doctored the numbers?

Like this one?

 

[SHughes]

I think there is a possiblity for different requirements due to the abilty to control fuel.

Epically posted via Tapatalk...

 

[jordanjames81]

watching

 

[Smoken Gun]

This thread keeps on delivering. Interesting stuff.

 

[raychem]

So the common rail requirements are different than the p-pump requirements, or has it been established that those who have posted dyno sheets showing a gain switching from one cam to another are either wrong or have doctored the numbers?

CR's are not limited like the P pumps and VP's are. CR's...infinite adjustability(to the degree of what internals can handle and capabilities of the ECM). P-Pumps fixed timing; VP's have limited advance. You can say that with the CR's, timing, fuel, fuel pressure play more of a roll than on limited injection system so more can be achieved with less. On a limited system, cam change would be beneficial, on the CR's as we have been learning on this thread may not be the case.

 

[JasonCzerak]

CR's are not limited like the P pumps and VP's are. CR's...infinite adjustability(to the degree of what internals can handle and capabilities of the ECM). P-Pumps fixed timing; VP's have limited advance. You can say that with the CR's, timing, fuel, fuel pressure play more of a roll than on limited injection system so more can be achieved with less. On a limited system, cam change would be beneficial, on the CR's as we have been learning on this thread may not be the case.

What's needed next.. Stock head / Stock cam + EFI and/or Stand alone tuned vs cam.

 

[mikmaze]

oh just get the cam, give ya something to do while we wait for efi........

 

[raychem]

What's needed next.. Stock head / Stock cam + EFI and/or Stand alone tuned vs cam.

I would say it all comes down to money! I have been working on these trucks since 97...a long time. I can tell you off the top of my head and with your budget what you can expect realistically and safely. With EFI, we are seeing the capabilities of the stock trucks with less modifications, 520-540 hp on a completely stock motor with EFI, no stacked boxes like before running clean. I would expect similar with standalone too.

I have always seen diesel performance like gasser performance. It is no different in many respects and based on how it is set it up it will get different results. A stock 24v CR head I have seen do 900 hp and with a larger secondary may push 1000 or more. If we port the head, I am talking a 3K-4K job(cut intake, major port work), I won't make more power or very little (still limited by fuel since it is let untouched) to say but I just changed all the characteristics of the motor. Maybe spool increases by 3 to 4 hundred rpm an boost is reduced by 10-15 psi but I still make the same peak power. Now I have a few variables to play with.

The reason I bring up this example is because there are so many things I can change that the cam may or may no influence. Cams in general should influence power range but with diesel, the rules are somewhat different (rpm limited by components). We can play with timing, fuel, and fuel pressure and maintain, increase, or reduce cylinder pressure, making the perceived inefficiencies of the stock cam disappear. BIG key to all this, we have NO fixed air fuel ratios...unlike a gasser which need to take into account (we do too but not in this example).

Turbos play a large part in this. Inducer size, turbine size along with the housing. Joe is a great example of this as his turbos are now choking him off but there is more in his setup with a larger secondary (I always reference the secondary a the larger turbo). I can even play with torque converters, their stall speed and get a truck to spool faster with no other changes.

If I told you there are 350 plus ways to build a 383 stroker, what would you say...that's a bunch of combinations!

I am no expert, I have learned as I gone through my builds and the folks I have done work for. Cams do work....just how much may just be a non factor in a build as seen in this thread. Big difference between the 4k rpm we mostly see versus motors turning 5-6k. There are a bunch of ways to get to 800 hp, its just money that limits you how you get there and with some limits. No to mention that this topic can become a dissertation between theory and actual results. Theory is not always correct.

 

[raychem]

oh just get the cam, give ya something to do while we wait for efi........

I have had a cam in my truck since 07, I love what it did for me. Now I would get EFI and put that money elsewhere. Like all the 03-05's still waiting for our go with EFI.