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Hey Rob,

I'm going to make it a little bit easier for you, well, maybe a little bit easier cause it's hard work but it needs to be done. We all obviously know what an amp gauge is and what amps mean on anything. More amps, less amps ...

Step one, do your crossover line or two lines going out of the back of the head, put an amp gauge on your fuel pump (whatever fuel pump you are running) and see what it draws. Step two, do the dead head setup, put an amp gauge on your fuel pump and see what it draws. When you reach your conclusions, let us know which draws less amperage. Which means, less restriction and = better performance.

DJ :evil
 
Darsey - I do not want to take words from the horses mouth and miscommunicate them. I would rather DJ post the technical stuff - as he basically just did above and as you can guess he obviously knows the results.

Aside from all the technical reasons DJ explained to me today - their customer service is second to none. They have customers and their own trucks running their system with great #s coming from both. I don't like having to spend money - but when I do I like knowing its going to great people.

I personally asked ITP to comment on this thread and stand behind their "back of the head" philosophy. We have yet to see a response... DJ has stood behind their product this whole time which to me shows absolute confidence in their kit.

Sorry I can't offer more technical/mechanical support - I would just rather leave that to the pros.
 
alright cool thanks. No worries. I'm considering dj's kit now also. Maybe ITP was busy today and not able to keep track of threads.
 
Here we go again...

This has been hashed over and over.
Bottom line DJ's fuel system is in fact a major improvement over the stock setup.

However it is NOT the best! Sorry Flame suit on but from an engineering perspective theres truth to that.

"Return Regulated" that is the term used to describe the ultimate fuel system. Well its vague at best as a differentiating statement to describe the systems.

Fact the oem is a "return regulated sytem" The factory regulator bleeds off excess pressure and returns it via the return line everyone taps into to make it a return regulated system.

Fact...oem lines are way too small and even worse when you add banjo's.
Dj's kit addresses this... bigger lines. Dj's kit also has a better regulator vs the oem...he has a boost reference! Thats where his advantages end. His regulator is still used on the front side of the cylinder heads. Guess what ...so is the factory regulator. Draw it on a schematic...no different.
The issue is..

(pressure supply)---->(Pressure control)----->(pressure depletion)

The other system:

(pressure supply)----->(pressure depletion)------>(pressure control)


What happens is in the oem fuel diagram the injectors are depleting pressure after the regulation.. this means at the regulator output there is consistant fuel pressure. On the very back side of depletion there is no guarantee of the same pressure as on the output of the regulator. Especially seeing as how there are actrually 2 sets of 4 depleters in series. Its the very last ones we worry about.

On the fuel system with the rearward regulator it pressurizes everything between itself and the pressure source. Given the source has a higher rating the regulator will bleed it off and everything in between will be consistant.

Case in point... does anyone know anything about the 7.3l and the "cackle" issue. If you do do you also know why the international version did not suffer from it? By the way same fuel system 7.3l and 6.0l fords version.
The 6.0 doesnt suffer it but when you exaggerate the limits of the system you will see its quirks and its exactly that why you are upgrading in the first place.


Also on the amp reading... The oem style system will NOT draw any more amps than the other system. This is because it is controlling pressures on its back side which you can effectively call its "soft side". easier on the system lobar wise. like doing half the work.
Now build up the pressures on the front side of regulation between the pressure source and you will see the pump work harder because it is actually keeping more pressure in the system. This in itself is scientific proof (given all variables are the same i.e. line size etc.) that post head regulation is doing a better job of regulating the "entire" fuel system.

Want to take it really scientific? we can go down the road of pulse wave tuning. Then again for an example of what that does specifically to the 6.0l is ..... look at the HP oil rails on an 03 to a post 9-29-03 and up motor!
Look at intake manifold tuning...variable goemetry manifolds...it goes on.

Also ask your self why is it that nearly every automotive fuel system has thier fuel regulators on the rail after the injectors have already recieved thier fuel pressure??

Bottom line... Theres two types of systems... BOTH are better than oem but one is in fact superior to the other.
 
Interesting read, but I think we're splitting hairs.

If you look at this from the pressure side of the superior system, you have a point, assuming that all the injectors are off. Turn them all on, or at least cycle them very quickly, and you'll find that the first injector closest to the pump sees a higher pressure than the one closest to the regulator. Unless the fuel rail is of such high volume, such that it acts like a sump of infinite volume, each injector will take a corresponding bite out of the available fuel pressure.

To truly get equal pressure to each injector, you'd need 8 separate lines from the pump from a common rail source, each with its own regulator. At that point I don't care if the regulator is ahead of or behind the injector.

Basically, you have two choices: Flood the front injectors to get the "proper" pressure at the rear injectors, or get "proper" pressure at the front injectors, and starve the rear ones.

Realistically speaking, what's the difference? The average pressure is the same.
 
Good observation.. true.. however the whole point of the fuel system is solve the issue of insufficient supply at WOT.
Another point to note is that your percentage of extra pressure on the front injectors will be less then the percentage of rear deficiency due to the position of being between the two parts vs after both of them.
 
I've heard all the explanations. I'd really just like to hear a true life example of how going behind the heads works better. No laboratories, tests or theories.

We don't go behind the heads and we could reference examples of trucks that are actually showing results from our FUEL+.

Thanks,
Vivian
 
MOMBENZ said:
We don't go behind the heads and we could reference examples of trucks that are actually showing results from our FUEL+.

Thanks,
Vivian
Click to expand...

Your favorite truck that you guys love dearly I believe is running a true regulated return from ELite....This is just like Stuckinmud is talking about. :clap:

Everyone one has there reasons and beliefs and mine is based on an educated theory which Stuck and me have the same opinion and reason. Theory is just what it is and all dollars set aside to be made, everyone will fight what they believe in.*bdh*
 
Hello Rob,

It's not our favorite truck that we love dearly, Bryan is our friend and a very nice person. DJ's been working but he'll answer shortly.

Besides, I'm talking about relatively stock trucks. The only one with 190cc injectors is Frankie and his hp is immeasurable or as you guys call it, questionable.

Thanks,
Vivian
 
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StuckinMud said:
Here we go again...

This has been hashed over and over.
Bottom line DJ's fuel system is in fact a major improvement over the stock setup.

However it is NOT the best! Sorry Flame suit on but from an engineering perspective theres truth to that.

Here’s an answer to your first statement. You must be an engineer when you are speaking in engineering terms. Just for the h#ll of it, you’re an engineer for International and you find yourself having to do a fuel system for a head that is so restrictive that you cannot allow fuel to go from one end to the other because then you would lose fuel pressure in the injectors or, to put it in laymens terms, ‘have air pockets’. What do you do?

Fact the oem is a "return regulated sytem" The factory regulator bleeds off excess pressure and returns it via the return line everyone taps into to make it a return regulated system.Yes, the OEM is a regulated return system. It is also an air bleed off system. This is a fact.

Fact...oem lines are way too small and even worse when you add banjo's.
This I agree with you 100%.

Dj's kit addresses this... bigger lines. Dj's kit also has a better regulator vs the oem...he has a boost reference! Thats where his advantages end. His regulator is still used on the front side of the cylinder heads. Guess what ...so is the factory regulator. Draw it on a schematic...no different.
The issue is..

It's not that the regulator is better, it's that it can be adjusted.As per boost reference, it’s common sense to boost reference your fuel when you are WOT.

In response to your statement about the factory regulator vs. DJ’s regulator on the front on the system, I suggest you do your homework to see how the system works and how it flows through the very restrictive heads whether you have a factory fuel pump or an aftermarket fuel pump. If you put an amp gauge on it, on a factory pump or an aftermarket pump, look at your amp draw. It is not that it is flowing more flow, but that it is so restrictive that the pump is working overtime when you open up the back of the heads, because of the restrictions. Which means the pump will not last.

We try to make our system to last a long time, not for a short time and from an engineering point of view, which I am not an engineer … you are welcome to call any engineer to discuss how restrictive the Ford head is. I think you will come up with a different conclusion. As a matter of fact, call Aeromotive, everybody’s favorite regulator and see what kind of response you get. Then again, I am not an engineer, I am a GREASE MONKEY.
DJ
.
Click to expand...

My answers are in red.

DJ
 
Robts said:
Your favorite truck that you guys love dearly I believe is running a true regulated return from ELite....This is just like Stuckinmud is talking about. :clap:

Everyone one has there reasons and beliefs and mine is based on an educated theory which Stuck and me have the same opinion and reason. Theory is just what it is and all dollars set aside to be made, everyone will fight what they believe in.*bdh*
Click to expand...


As to your statement, "your favorite truck, that you guys love dearly". The truck that I love dealy is called, "Mini Me", so you're wrong.

As to a true regulated system from Elite. Your words, "true regulated system" .... then why is it restrictive at the back of the heads? Maybe you should do some research before posting on the internet and misleading others.

As to your statement, "everyone has there reasons and beliefs ....
I think you and stuckinmud should rethink at your theory after opening up the head so you can see the restriction and see how to flow fuel from one side to the other. Our FUEL+ is designed for up to 250cc injectors which is based on the dead head principle. Now, if you want to go to bigger injectors, I have another fuel system but that one is custom-made per truck, like it is for Mini Me.

DJ :evil
 
Works damned well on mine, but I am about to put a FASS system on, because I do not like the initial drop from 52 to 32 before the increase, and because I want the benefits of the FASS system, and the fact that my Fuel pump is 4 years old, and has 82K miles on it. I was one of the first to run DJ's kit, and I have 190's. I have had no issues with it, and it works damned good.
 
Dj..

First off your not the only "grease Monkey"! I have been wrenching since the age of 5 with my father and my uncle. From 13 on I lived and breathed street racing and worked on cars that made hot rod magazine! I also wrenched in a local shop and with state certs at a Ford dealer!!! Then I went to school..
When I became an engineer I was a "field Engineer" and my job was to find permanent fixes to equipment in the real world..I will be the first to tell you that the real world and pare are not the same thing!

However I have nothing to sell here.. I understand you need to defend your design and reputation or whatever.. but just because you sell it and build it doesnt mean its the best way of doing it. Btw are you not a full time tree farmer now? Soooooo how long has it been since mini me hit the track??? Things evolve and we find better ways of doing them...its easy to find ourselves out of the loop. Nobody in any type of business can afford to not be on the forefront of development...well unless they sell someone elses developments.

Also to say that a truck is soooo fast just because it has your fuel system on it...means nothing! I'll put a sticker on something and just because.....

BTW even your answer in red about the amperage makes my point even more so.. you say the head is so restrictive.... yet your system still has to flow through it.. Now I'm even more worried about the end of the system!! Especially when your setup allows the pump to work easier when its pumping an assumed maximum volume and pressure through it.
I know what the fuel path looks like on the 6.0l head I have a few on my bench..

Truth is your setup is better than stock, however I have watched you beat this over and over again the last 2 years while you have really been on the sideline of development.. Things change and move forward.. explore the possibilities dont be soo closed minded...
Btw I went over your style system time over and over before settling on the better advantages of the other system..

you led the forefront on alot of 6.0l things and everyone has benifited one way or another, I'm sure everone would agree it would be nice to see you back in it...but to rely on the past and just sell products you developed along time ago wont take you far into tomorrow especially as were learning more and more about massaging the 6.0l.
Its obvious well have to agree to disagree along with many others.. but if anything with due respect get back in the game of developing the stuff.. who knows what you will find when you start to experiment again..


having said all that lets see how long its stays posted
 
StuckinMud said:
Dj..

having said all that lets see how long its stays posted
Click to expand...

If you have a problem with the way this site is moderated, please feel free to let someone know. Not sure what sites you are accustomed to, but rarely is a thread pulled for being unpopular on Comp D.

Also, DJ is a big boy, and he can handle himself.

I am not really sure what Dj being a farmer and it being over a year since mini me hit the track has to do with DJ's fuel system working or not. The 5.9 cummmins is pretty old and works well and its been around forever. Everyone is entitled to his or personal opinion. Lets not let those opinions turn personal however.

For the record, I agree with your last statement. Get back in the game DJ! While I have tried and have had successes with other products as well, I like a lot of others have never had a problem with any of DJ's stuff, or if I did it was settled immediately and positively!
 
DJ is one of the coolest guys in the business. I would love to see mini me hit the track again soon.
 
Dj,
First I will say you need to drop hanging out with trees all the time and get back in it.

Second,
This isnt a thread to bash you and respect you in everyway for what you have done with the 6.0 world. And like Vivan said we are friends

third, I want to talk about somethings. I dont need to get into the engineering data with you. Doug is doing a fine job with that.:clap: I myself is also a Engineer and have been in racing since 6 from motorcross to drag racing. I have built many diesels in my day and will say technology does involved. I am curiuos why you think your fuel system will support 250cc injectors. I just bought your fuel system(Which Vivan knows) for a customer. We put in on a truck with 225cc injectors and a VGT-ss. The fuel pressure at WOT was about 25-30psi. There was not enough to support 225cc injectors. Since then we put a FAss 150/180 on it and fixed the problem. With stock injectors fuel pressure its near perfect. Your fuel sysytem will support 190 max. The pump doesnt have enough pressure for anything else...Ask any vendor.Sparton, Doug,Matt,Josh, ITP, Elite,Innovative, ATS,Squatch, anyone just anyone

The restriction in the heads is what it is unless you line bore your heads and open them up. I have started threads about this before and know someone who is going to try this and test it. Not me. But no matter what the fuel does dead end. That why the passange stops at the back in the head. Its like a dead end street....

When you spend all your time in another passion you lose sight of the industry passing you by. I know people like Doug,myself,Tadd,Josh,MAtt,Eric and everyone whos passion is breathed everyday trying and involving new things are not loosing sight. We try things, caculate things and destroy things all the time to make things better. This is how we stay on top of the industry. HAving your wife monitor the industry isnt going help you stay in the 6.0 world with technology. It will only help you see what people are doing and creating from the sidelines.

If anything from this thread, maybe it will help DJ drop the shovel, grab a wrench and get Mini-me back on the road! Lets hear it for Mini-me:cheer:I would hate to see that thing just sit around collecting dust. We would love to see it back on the street/strip running strong. I am starting to think we will see my race truck done before we see minime on the strip.

Thanks Dj for all you have done!
 
As to defending my design and reputation, my reputation was shot a long time ago. *bdh* Now, the design and as to whether it is best way of doing it, I will defend because it's been proven time and time again.

I will attempt to answer your questions. I did buy a farm and I do sell oak trees but I am not a tree farmer. I am a mechanic by trade or a “fixer” and have been for over 30 years. The last time Mini Me hit the track was in April 2007.

As for things evolving and you finding better ways to do them, are you talking about things that have yet to be proven? Theory is one thing and practice is another.

As to finding myself out of the loop, I don't know which loop you are referring to. Is it the loop of “I'm going to do …. I think I can … I think I can ... or is it the loop of I've already done it? I'm still in that one. Which loop are you in? I want to make sure I’m not missing anything.

As to being in the forefront of development. How do you know what I do daily? Or what we're working on here. Just because we wait until things are proven, doesn’t mean we don’t have any rabbits in the hat.

Putting a sticker on something and saying it's yours, is one thing ... actually doing something to make the truck faster is another. I guess you're out of that loop?

My system does not flow through it, as you stated. It flows into the head. There is a difference but of course, as an engineer, you would know that.
A little bit of knowledge on fuel pumps. You have a pump flowing 50 lbs. of pressure, at a specific amperage level with no restriction. Now you have the same pump, flowing 50 lbs. of pressure, with restrictions. What is going to happen to the amps? Are they going to go down or up?

It is your prerogative to buy any system you want. We are all free to feel, think and act but just for the record, your statement should reflect that you think it is better, not that it is better cause we haven’t heard any proof of that yet.

Thank you your kind of words of benefitting from our work but I don't rely on the past, if I had, I would never have gotten to do all the things I've done to today. I don't know what you mean by massaging the 6.0L. The ground work has been done but keep massaging and let us know what comes up.
I don't think I've ever been out of the game. Just because I don't disclose what I do daily or what I'm working on doesn't mean I'm not doing anything, it just means that I will post when I have results.

DJ :evil

P.S. I will reply to Rob in a few minutes. Don't put me out to pasture yet :thankyou2:
 
Here we again, People talking with theories not with timeslips,dyno sheets,or videos just "THEORIES.'' If I recall it takes all the above to be believed..As I recall when I posted my horsepower it took dyno sheets,video's and all the works in order to be believed..I'm no Engineer,but I got a bad ass 7800 4x4 truck that's PROVEN 11'S at 116.8mph in the 1/4mile..

Without disrespecting Robts and StuckinMud,Where are your timeslips,dyno sheets,and videos to prove your theory...BTW,The Dj Fuel System worked for me..On the dyno and on the track..I saw 20rwhp on the dyno with a bone stock tuned truck..Maybe for Engineers it doesn't work on paper or on computer...But for US Racers it works on the track and on the dyno..

If People are interested for it to work on the keyboard or on theory it might not work for you guys..But If you're interested in seeing more power on the dyno and going fast in the track don't hesitate to get it..

P.S Thank you DJ for your Design on the fuel system It Works..

And I have all my rights to make this comment because I have proved an 11sec 6.0...

Frankie
 
Hey Rob,
Where has everyone gotten the idea that I am a tree farmer? I sell oak trees. I don’t need to do anything to them cause they have been on the property for years and I can only take them out of the ground in the winter. It’s a little bit of extra $$ and goes into the Mini Me fund.

Obviously all these vendors you mentioned haven’t done their homework. If they had they would find the factory pump does support up to 250cc injectors. Mini Me was running 250cc injectors with a factory pump.

Let’s not use Mini Me as an example. Is 790hp enough for you to believe the factory fuel pump will hold 250cc injectors? Look at Bryan’s truck. He still uses the factory pump with 225cc.

I am not like other vendors in that I don’t start promoting anything until I know it works. BTW, did you know we have a 6.4L running 14.09 with the dpf? This was done about one month ago.

Just because Vivian posts doesn’t mean she’s monitoring the industry :LOL: I sometimes get very irritated when I see people pushing things that they know don’t work just to make $$ but find that when I try to state the obvious, I get attacked so I just sit back and watch. I’m just waiting for somebody to “create” something that works.

It's been stated more than once that we sell our fuel system to make money. That should be a given but ...

Question: Do we sell an air cleaner? No. Why? Because if I can run 11.8 on the stock air cleaner why would a daily driver need it? If we were here to sell, sell, sell, we would be offering all the products the other vendors feel are needed. We're happy with just making strong, reliable trucks with a minimal investment.

DJ
 
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